The Career Flipper Podcast

From model to tech entrepreneur, meet Julie Hanell

Episode Summary

From model to tech entrepreneur, meet Julie Hanell of Paris, France

Episode Notes

Episode Transcription

Automatically Transcribed With Podsqueeze

Jenny Dempsey 00:00:00  Whenever someone praises my work, or whenever I get a note that says you inspired me. Actually, for me, inspiration is really important. so when I hear that, I stack those in my notes app, and whenever I have this moment where I feel like, am I really the right person to do that, am I capable? I usually look at that.

Julie Hanell 00:00:24  Hey there and welcome to the Career Flipper podcast. I'm Jenny Dempsey, your host and fellow career flipper. This podcast started because after getting laid off and questioning everything about my career, I couldn't stop wondering, how do people actually pull off these big career flips and how do they keep going when things get messy and overwhelming and confusing? That curiosity led me here, having real, honest conversations with people from all kinds of backgrounds about how they navigated major career changes. So if someone sent you this episode, that's amazing because it means they believe in you and your career journey. So pop in your earbuds, get comfy, and let's dive into some career flipping inspiration.

Julie Hanell 00:01:14  And hey, don't forget to hit subscribe so you never miss a new episode every Thursday. Today you'll meet Julie Cannell. Originally from Switzerland, she has lived all over the world, including South Africa, Spain and France. Julie has done a little bit of everything, graced magazine covers as a model. She opened and ran her own coffee shop in South Africa and launched a tech company for women to host events and swap clothing. She moved into talent acquisition in the tech world, and now she's head of growth for a global organization. Oh, and if that wasn't enough, she also is the co-host of the She Hustles Podcast, a podcast all about helping female entrepreneurs take action and chase their dreams. In the episode, we get into all of it how she makes these decisions to ensure that she doesn't regret anything, the times she had to start over and really knew it was for the best. Dealing with imposter syndrome and how she's built a career and life that actually feels so right for her. Julie is full of wisdom, and she keeps it real about what it's like to navigate big career pivots with nothing holding her back.

Julie Hanell 00:02:30  One quick note this episode was recorded in late 2024 before I took on a full time job. Basically the investors to my dreams in early 2025. So there's a part in the episode that talks through this, so I thought I'd mention it for context, and my thoughts in the conversation haven't changed, but I just wanted to give you that little heads up. Anyways, Julie's story is so inspiring. I know you're going to love this chat. Let's get into it now. I am here with Julie today. Julie, thank you so much for being here with me.

Jenny Dempsey 00:03:09  On the career of flipper. Thank you for welcoming me. I'm super excited about our episode today.

Julie Hanell 00:03:15  Me too. Me too. You know, we how we connected. if I remember correctly, someone had. There was a post about career changes, and someone tagged us or tagged me in the post and was like, you need to talk to her. And then we just connected right from there. And I mean, I love when that happens.

Julie Hanell 00:03:37  I feel like it is serendipitous and I'm so glad to have connected with you because your story is full of lots of ups and downs and lessons, and you just continue to show up and share. Share it all. So tell everyone a little bit about you, where you're at and what you're doing now, and then we'll dive into all the juicy stuff.

Jenny Dempsey 00:03:57  Yeah, that sounds amazing, but you're 100% right. That's how we connected. So I've been sharing my story quite a bit on LinkedIn lately because writing is what I enjoy most. But yeah, my story is pretty well. So today you're finding me in the south of Spain. I have a house in the Marbella area, and I work as a head of growth for an American company, a small tech, startup, so to say. So I take care of everything that sells related growth. it's honestly one of the most fitting job ever because it's head of growth. And I feel like all my career flips have given me, you know, the space to grow.

Jenny Dempsey 00:04:41  But do you want me to go all the way back or what? What do you want to focus on?

Julie Hanell 00:04:46  Good question. You know, if you could talk a little bit about the way, way back. I would love to have that foundation for everyone listening because I, I know a little bit of it, but I think as you just mentioned, those pieces are kind of like a cookie crumbs or breadcrumbs in a way to where you are now. So if you're comfortable with that, I would love to have you.

Jenny Dempsey 00:05:08  Yeah, I'm very happy to share my story, I think. I will then go way back. So maybe just for some context, today I'm 33 and I'm going all the way back to 18 because, unlike most people, I never studied. So I was scouted to be a model when I was around 17 in Switzerland, a very small country in Europe. And so what happened was that suddenly afterwards I get kind of thrown around Europe. So I lived in between Paris, Greece, Athens, Milan.

Jenny Dempsey 00:05:42  I get to model. And then I had a job in South Africa, Cape Town, when I was 18, and I just fell in love with the place. And for those who have been in the modeling industry, I'm pretty sure you know, it's a pretty, you know, tough kind of industry to work in. And lots, lots of lessons for sure that are still useful today, which I'll get on later. But yeah, I suddenly realized, oh my gosh, like, I don't want to be a model for the rest of my life. That wasn't my dream to be the next Cindy Crawford or, you know, Gisele Bündchen. So I realized that in South Africa, the money I'd made in Europe would give me enough to open a cafe. So I was 19 and I opened a cafe. That was my dream. And that's the beauty of being extremely naive and young and no responsibilities. And you feel like you can do anything. And ultimately I did so opened the cafe called The Blend.

Jenny Dempsey 00:06:38  That went amazingly well. We did top five, you know, two years in a row. And then one day a couple from London and knocked on my door and they were like, we really want to buy your cafe. And I was like, what? Really you do? So that was really fun. I sold the cafe, I trained them, and then I realised that I wanted to travel again, because when you have a cafe, you very much, you know, stuck on site, you have to make sure everything runs smoothly and so on. So I opened, I would say the very first Net-A-Porter, but for South Africa, so women could basically sell their secondhand high end garments. I also organised sip and swap parties where women could come with their garments and then kind of, you know, have wine because we had a lot of wine and champagne sponsors and then, you know, shop and also swap clothing. And then after that, I opened a few branches around South Africa, and I sold that when I was 24.

Jenny Dempsey 00:07:36  And then I was like, okay, what's next? Went back to Switzerland, you know, did some thinking, some Recentering and I realized law. Anything that's legal, you know, contracts, agreements and then recruitment are the two major pain points of having a business. And I was like, okay, I'm 24. I really need to learn about that. So then I joined a big multinational, executive search company, and I that's what I did for a long time. So I really, you know, nurtured into understanding people. How do they work but motivates them? How do you pay them all of that? How do you create a team that's powerful? And so I did that for a while. I was back in Switzerland. I also studied law at a distance. I did that for a while, and then I was like, this is not for me. So I gave up. So I dropped out. and then moving on to recruiting, also moved to Stockholm at the same time, because I am married to a Swede, and I realized I wanted to be in Sweden and that is where I fell into tech recruitment.

Jenny Dempsey 00:08:42  So ever since I've been in the tech industry, you know, mainly recruitment, talent acquisition, management. And I founded a startup, virtual reality startup during the pandemic, which was really fun, fundraised on money and then left that startup because the pandemic, we had, you know, some team members that were going through divorces and really, you know, heavy personal issues. So I decided to just move on. And today I'm head of growth. So that's my journey so far. So it's been very so people do not lose hope. If you think you have a non-linear career please. Yeah.

Julie Hanell 00:09:24  I mean from where you began with something that you didn't really even want to do and then did it and it taught you a lot about the things that it sounds like you really did enjoy, like connecting with people and travel, and then you realize the parts that you didn't enjoy and you weren't afraid to make a switch. And I think, and maybe this is different for everybody, but I hear a lot from people when you get success, when you're in a successful role, for example, I'm just going to jump back to the first one and modeling.

Jenny Dempsey 00:09:55  Go ahead.

Julie Hanell 00:09:56  Clearly very successful. And, you know, making a money to support yourself. And it sounds like at that point you're like, I didn't I didn't want to do this anymore. And people get to this point where they're like, I don't want to do this anymore. But when it comes to the financial part, you have the stability, you have this certain way of life. To just say no and give that up is really frightening. It's scary. It's a lot of unknowns. So I'm curious. And you were so young. You were just a big kid. How did you know? I guess, and maybe that's also why you were able to maybe take more risks somewhere a little younger. But I'm curious, what was going through your mind at that point about financial security and how you are able to be okay with like, I'm not going to do this, but I'm going to open this copy or this, you know, this cafe, because this is what makes sense. How did how did that become a safe, I guess, or calculated risk? Maybe I should call it for you at that point.

Jenny Dempsey 00:10:58  That is such a brilliant question. So and, you know, I need to think because I've never been asked this question. So, this is exciting. I have always been not impulsive, but I've always been very hungry. As to, you know, how can I better myself? How can I have an exciting life? For those who know Switzerland, it's quite a small place. you know, the city I grew up is like a small town in America. Everyone does the same thing. Children are expected to become lawyers, doctors if they make it, you know, through studies. And so I was always very, I think, hungry for a world outside of Switzerland. And so when I went to South Africa, I really fell in love with the place and the connections I'd made with the people down there were so strong that I felt like, this is another home when you modeling and you traveling. There are a few components that make life really hard, which is number one, you think that the girls modeling with you are friends, but most of the time they are absolutely horrible towards you.

Jenny Dempsey 00:12:20  And that makes sense because you know everyone needs to make money, but competition levels are so high that you realize, okay, well, if she's going to the same casting as me, I should either run to that casting or I should lock her up in the bedroom. And that has happened to me. I've been locked up in my bedroom, so. But I've also made some incredible friendships through modeling, you know, girls. And I'm saying girls because. Because we were really girls back then. and we were trying to figure out the world. And then you have your agencies and agents, a lot of them are pretty horrible as well. So I think in that sense, I had maybe some financial stability and I had a future, but it wasn't, you know, enough of a trade off for me to be like, let's not take the risk to actually bet everything on myself.

Julie Hanell 00:13:09  That makes sense. That sounds really hard. I know Steyn is worse than or Steyn is scarier than Lee. Exactly.

Julie Hanell 00:13:19  And you made that choice based on it? Yeah, it sounds like it's just. What, like that would just be so hard on, like, your, mental health, like. I mean, and so you made that leap, And you, you've got the cafe. And it was thriving, thriving. And it was keeping you in a place that it sounds like really became a home. And I'm guessing lots of regular people coming in. You got to know the community. And and then that couple from London came and knocked on your door. And at that moment, you know, it sounds like you were just kind of itching to get back out and traveling. But, what, you know, kind of the same question, like not knowing what was next, so to say. What really prompted you to feel comfortable and again, a calculated risk or safe or whatever word you want to call it to make that decision, like, yeah, these are the people that are going to do a great job.

Julie Hanell 00:14:20  Like, how did you know that at that point?

Jenny Dempsey 00:14:24  Yeah. Again, I think for me, as we've discussed a little bit before and, you know, before recording. I've always been very curious, and the beauty of having your own cafes that you get to meet a lot of people, and I love asking questions. So, you know, I started seeing regulars talking with them, especially women, and they were all complaining about the same thing, like, oh, you know, I can't find a nice dress. Like we very restricted in terms of fashion brands. you know, some women wear like, I have some amazing stuff that I don't know what to do with it because there's no really, you know, places to go with. And that's where, you know, browsing the internet, I realized, oh, my gosh, we don't have anything like Net-A-Porter. And I think being as naive as I was back then, I was like, that's it. That's what I'm supposed to do.

Jenny Dempsey 00:15:13  I have a background in fashion. I'm really interested by, you know, using tech and seeing what can be done. And then I think, like most digital nomads, I had this dream of like, can you imagine if I can run my business from the US, you know, but in South Africa. So I was very tempted and, and I must say, having a cafe for two and a half years, you're on your feet every single day. I mean, it's South Africa, so it's there's a lot of like it's quite a dangerous place it was back then. It's an amazing place. But they still like a lot of, you know, instability and so on. And I think I was just really ready to move on and do something new and test myself.

Julie Hanell 00:15:59  Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. And the breadcrumbs from things in the past coming to coming to fruition where you're like, I, I want this and I can use these skills that I've learned along the way to make these other things happen.

Julie Hanell 00:16:12  I love that about you. You're not afraid to take risks, and you're really using the skills from a very technical level, but also very intuitive level. You're able to really tune in to who you are. And I think, gosh, I don't think I really knew myself that well in my early 20s. I just was kind of like jumping around and thinking that this path was going to be carved out for me, because this is what everyone told me to do go to college, get a job. That's what you do. So I didn't I didn't know how to question it. I don't think I even and a lot of the times I don't think I felt that I could do anything different. I didn't feel permission to be able to do that. And it sounds like for you, you didn't want permission. You just gave it to yourself because you're like, this is the I want to do this. I want to do this. And I, I just I really admire that about you. And I think everyone listening will really get that full picture of, like, you don't have to wait for the permission.

Julie Hanell 00:17:11  You can. You can give it to yourself. You don't have to wait for someone to come up and validate that your idea is great. You can just try and see if it's going to work out.

Jenny Dempsey 00:17:19  You know when you have support at home and you, you know, kind of have good friends around and and people are going to study. I don't think there's enough space for you, you know, as a teenager or young adult to actually question, really what do you want? And also, there's so much I mean, I did a lot of different things. And still today, sometimes I ask myself, who am I really? And I'm, you know, now I think I have a good idea, especially after, you know, being in this job now for two and a half years. I really understand my skills. But yeah, you can't be too hard on yourself. And again, I know this is a bit of a different conversation, but, you know, in Europe there's an understanding for gap years, as you know, when I think of Americans and when I exchange with you guys, it's not really allowed because you want to have the CV in order to enter big companies.

Jenny Dempsey 00:18:15  So, you know, it's, I don't think we can be too hard on ourselves. A lot of the time. Our past is sometimes defined by where we live and we have to just make to.

Julie Hanell 00:18:25  Right, right. That that is a really good point. It is not welcomed here. Just like working and taking vacation time is, you know, as much as people are kind of coming around to it, I think more now, it's still like, oh, you're taking that time off. it is different culture wise. So that is really good to bring that up, because we are working in the constraints of something that is way beyond us. And when we make decisions to go against that, there is a lot that comes with it. and we just have to still accept that and still keep moving forward. So yeah, I'm, I'm glad you brought that up because that is something that's important. That's really important when you're thinking about changing your career. it comes into play for sure.

Jenny Dempsey 00:19:11  Absolutely.

Julie Hanell 00:19:13  Once you sold that and then, you know, going back to like the I'm just going to call it sustainable clothing. I'm very I mean, love me a thrift store I am. That is basically where most of my clothes come from. I am very into sustainable fashion. I wouldn't say I'm fashionable, but I like sustainable. I probably have a lot to learn from you on the fashion front. But anyways, that's another side, conversation. But you took something that there was a gap. There was not really an option for women to either clear things out of their closet that were valuable and very, you know, fashion forward, but also to find new pieces. And so you took that gap, and then you took your tech skills and you created a was it a platform? Can you talk a little bit more about what you built and how that led into your next chapter?

Jenny Dempsey 00:20:09  Absolutely. So I didn't have any tech skills back then, but I had a bit of a, you know, fashion understanding due to living in Paris for a while.

Jenny Dempsey 00:20:18  And so I got in touch with a small team that developed websites, and I basically sat along with them most days to understand how we build this out. And it was a platform where you could log in, have your own account, and then you could upload pictures of your items, and then you could, you know, meet up with other women in order to swap those items. However, being South Africa, women didn't want to meet at a random place because it was way too dangerous to just, you know. So I realized, okay, well, now I need to pivot somehow. So what we did was we had a whole list of restaurants, cafes, boutiques that were, you know, verified by our brand. We women could actually meet. And then I started this monthly sip and swap parties. So I had champagne houses, wine houses, some fashion boutiques that would sponsor me. I would rent out a big space, and then all of those boutiques and sponsors had their stands, and then women would bring up to five garments that they could swap.

Jenny Dempsey 00:21:20  and that's how it took off. And that was really fantastic. it was a lot of fun. So it was more of an events company with, you know, a platform. But ultimately it was. Yeah, it was a lot of fun.

Julie Hanell 00:21:34  That sounds like so much fun. I would love. I would love that. That sounds like a blast. Yeah. And so so then you're bringing people together. This community aspect is really falling into place here, which sounds very aligned with who I know you as now, like you are a community builder. And so here it is really, you know, maybe at the cafe it also started, but I'm really hearing it more now. And so then when you decided to pivot from that, was that hard to kind of because with that community that you are building and again, in a place that felt like home was hard to pivot and get back out and travel, or were you at this point where you're like, I'm ready. Like I need to change.

Julie Hanell 00:22:18  Like what? Where were you feeling at that point?

Jenny Dempsey 00:22:20  Yeah, I was definitely ready to change. I think I realized I was hitting a ceiling. So what happened is, does Evans took off, and then I welcome two women on the team. They each had their own branch of franchise, and then they carried on with it. And eventually I just realized, you know, I had this idea and I think that happens a lot, actually, when you're pivoting because you you can only do so much research until you're actually in the job. Right? So you have this idea of, you know, having the Net-A-Porter of South Africa with 20 million women logged in. And I think that's when impatience kicked in. I was 24 and I felt like, oh my gosh, I'm soon 25. Like, I'm not a millionaire yet. And so I, I just I just said I need to go and I on a personal level, I had some hardships in South Africa where I had a few pretty bad situations when my life was endangered.

Jenny Dempsey 00:23:26  And so that, yeah, some actually a gun to my head in. Yes. And so technically, I realized maybe it's time to go back to Switzerland. you know, and there were a lot of things politically I wasn't, you know, really fine with in South Africa. I mean, there were a lot of things that started building up. That is also at that time Nelson Mandela passed. So you could feel spiritually that things were not going well. so luckily, being Swiss, I could, you know, leave. So I left and went back to Switzerland. And I'm very quick at just I'm very quick at making decisions. I think that's one of the qualities I have. It's I don't really ponder, you know, over what has been I'm more like, okay, what's next?

Julie Hanell 00:24:18  How do you make those decisions, especially big decisions with like that lightning speed. What's what goes through your mind? What's your process I'm going to be taking?

Jenny Dempsey 00:24:29  I'm curious though, when I hear you, you know, say you ruminating and some how long does it take for you in general, if you look back at your process, how many days or months or, you know, does it take before you actually make the decision?

Julie Hanell 00:24:46  That's a good question.

Julie Hanell 00:24:48  I you know, I'll use the podcast as an example because this is the most recent one. It took me over three months to make the decision to actually do it. And what was going through my mind initially was like, I'm not good enough to do something like that. Who am I to do something like that? I've never done anything like that. I don't know how. And that was just like the record that kept playing. But to this and the reason why this question is so good, and going back to the, you know, lightning decisions, there was a pivot point where I actually got my 350, the job rejection, and I suddenly was like, I don't care. I don't care if I don't know. I don't care if I won't be good at it. I have to do this because I don't care anymore. And it was getting to the point of not caring what anyone else thinks, or even what I think of myself, and just thinking that I'm so drawn to this, I'm just going to fucking do it.

Julie Hanell 00:25:41  But it does take me a while sometimes to get to that. And I, you know, for better or worse, that's progress. Not perfection, right?

Jenny Dempsey 00:25:52  No. But, you know, when I hear you, this is what I'm thinking. There's a few things that come up because number one, when you pivoting, you always have imposter syndrome. I've had it in every single job, literally. And so what I've come to do now is whenever someone praises my work, or whenever I get a note that says, you inspired me. Actually, for me, inspiration is really important. so when I hear that, I stack those in my notes app, and whenever I have this moment where I feel like, am I really the right person to do that, am I capable? I usually look at that. And then the second thing I would say, and I've always functioned this way, but that's mainly because of my childhood. But I've always been extremely scared of having regrets. And I would say all of my decisions, it's been this one question when you 65 and looking back, will you regret doing this? And and honestly it's that question is always there like and so I would say the last hardest decision I made was to quit, the startup I had co-founded and fundraised for, and that was really hard.

Jenny Dempsey 00:27:08  Like I again had this dream, okay, I'm going to do ten years in this startup. It's going to be a unicorn. It's going to be a big thing, you know, then I can retire and invest in other startups and support people. And after, you know, one year after fundraising, nothing happened. Then I was like, okay, what are like, what are the different scenarios? And that's what I did. Literally, I took an entire week and I listed all the various scenarios. And today we can do that with ChatGPT. And so.

Speaker 3 00:27:38  That's true, but I.

Jenny Dempsey 00:27:39  I listed all the scenarios and I was like, what you know, is, is any of those scenarios appealing to me if I stay versus is it any of those, you know, are those scenarios if I leave more appealing and it's so happened, and leaving was the most appealing part to me because I wanted to do new things. So I'm I've definitely changed. You know, the Julie who was asking about regrets.

Jenny Dempsey 00:28:04  19 is not the same at 33, but it's still a question I ask myself. I'm really super scared of having regrets. Like very, very scared. So that tells you a bit, you know, a bit about me.

Speaker 3 00:28:15  Yeah.

Julie Hanell 00:28:16  And that's a great point because, you know, picturing yourself older and looking back to live a life that you're suddenly like, yeah, I wish I would have done that and then not have those opportunities as easily accessible. You know, age doesn't always get in everyone's way, but it can be harder sometimes to start things when you know you're a little bit past, you know, a certain age. And so I think like that is a it's a great thing to have. I feel like I would write that on a post-it note, put it on my computer, and every time I'm thinking about things because I. Yeah, having those regrets holds you, holds you back. it's kind of sad. And I know you and, you know, talking about other things before, like the story of my dad and like, oh, and when he was on his deathbed and like, I wish I would have, you know, gotten to know you and your sister better.

Julie Hanell 00:29:07  I wish I would have worked less like things like that. To have a regret on your deathbed of things that you could have done in relationships you could have had. yeah. I don't I don't want to be that person either. no. So that makes that makes sense. And I love that you bring that to the table to open other people's eyes to, because it is hard to make decisions, especially big decisions when it comes to things that could impact you financially. But knowing that if if it's a matter of you regretting it down the road, it just it doesn't seem it doesn't seem like it's worth it. The cost is more to not do it than to do it and be struggling a little bit, you know, or a lot of it, like however that works.

Jenny Dempsey 00:29:58  Yeah I agree. And on that note, I don't want this to become a decision making podcast episode, but I need to say something else I listen to. Obviously, I listen to tech podcasts every week. And there was this podcast about, Bezos at Amazon, how he makes decisions.

Jenny Dempsey 00:30:18  And I think he has a very simple model that we can all learn from, which is think of certain decisions as being reversible and others irreversible. In other words, if you decide to say yes to this opportunity, is that something that will get you in a different space that you can never come back from? Or is that something you can actually change? Turn around to get back to something different. And so obviously with irreversible decisions, it should be much easier to say yes then no. Maybe it helps, but it helped me, so I thought I'd share.

Julie Hanell 00:30:53  Does that does it makes it feel, safer.

Speaker 3 00:30:58  Exactly.

Julie Hanell 00:30:59  And I think also, again, not to turn this into decision making. I'll pivot in a second. But the thing that popped in my mind when you said that is like, you know, there comes this point where, you think you cannot go back once you've made a choice, but we put these restraints on ourselves. And so when we kind of remove that and think, I can, I can go back or I can change or I can move or I could, you know, do something different.

Julie Hanell 00:31:25  Then we become more open to making those decisions on a regular basis. And, even with little things like the furniture flipping that I do like sometimes, you know, I'm not sure about reaching out to a business or reaching out to a potential client, like even little decisions in the day to day. Sometimes I just have to think, well, what's the worst they could say? No.

Speaker 3 00:31:47  Cool, exactly.

Julie Hanell 00:31:48  I know I'm going to talk to someone else and putting it into a perspective that my mind is not going to be locked in. This is the one. No, that's going to be the end. It's not. It's not the end. All there's more opportunities out there. You're sometimes gonna look for them in other places. But yeah, I really love that you talked about this. I love that we expanded on a bit because decision making is such a big part of changing your career, and it can be what holds people back because they're putting those restraints on themselves. But and you've clearly made a lot of decisions.

Julie Hanell 00:32:19  You have a lot of expertise in that, at least some other things.

Speaker 3 00:32:23  So thanks for thanks for.

Julie Hanell 00:32:25  Diving into that with me. And so you made then after that, you know, for your safety, for your health and well-being, but also for your desire to want to be somewhere else. And and you made another decision. You went back to Switzerland and then, you know, you you found a new path and you carved that out. You learned what you needed to learn, and then you continue to move forward. And it sounds like at that point, you know, finding a job was where you were landing. So can you talk about going from this, this position of like you're working on your own, you're building things up for yourself, and then you go to work for someone else. What is that is that's kind of like the next few steps. Like what has that been like? And how do you kind of, like, still give yourself the time and space to run your own things, like your personal branding and, you know, education that you do outside of that while working for someone else? How does that kind of fit in with your entrepreneurial, you know, mindset and, and spirit?

Jenny Dempsey 00:33:36  Yeah, it was really hard.

Jenny Dempsey 00:33:37  I think it was one of the hardest pivot for me, for sure, because it's going from having a lot of freedom and that, you know, dabbling into a lot of different things to being constrained in learning one specific craft and, you know, also reporting to someone. Luckily, the person who who hired me was very much an entrepreneur himself. And I think that is where, you know, I my thirst for learning was really satisfied because he took me under his wing and he taught me everything in the business itself. He understood, you know. But before that, though, oh my gosh, that was it was really tough. When I came back to Switzerland, I had some, you know, savings on the side. But remember the South African rand versus the Swiss franc was peanuts. So I, you know, I didn't make a tech exit. So anyways, I had a little in my name and the first job I took was wrapping gifts in the mall during Christmas. And that was that was a big blow to my ego, because you're in a place where you have those businesses.

Jenny Dempsey 00:34:50  People know you as an entrepreneur, and then you come to Switzerland and you've wrapping those gifts. And I was like, this is weird. This feels odd. But I also realized you gotta, you know, you rebuilding from scratch. You're a whole new network. I was in a place where entrepreneurship wasn't understood, like the US people were like, what? What did you do in South Africa? Like, what happened? Were you, like, in love with someone? Like, why would you do this to yourself? And then I also applied to quite a few jobs and people were like, you don't have a degree. You know, I'm not going to hire you. You have zero degrees. So luckily I think modeling and having a business taught me, you know, personal branding. I knew how to sell myself. And that is one skill. I think anyone who's wanting to pivot needs to learn. Like it doesn't have to be, you know, LinkedIn posting, but it has to be like, okay, what am I bringing to the table? Who am I as a person? How can I sell those skills? Like how do I read the job description where I see gaps that, you know, my skills could really benefit them for the growth or that department? And I think that is where, you know, I really managed I had that one interview that was given to me after that entrepreneur saw some potential.

Jenny Dempsey 00:36:09  But yeah, it was really tough. And for a lot of years without a degree, people were like, oh, well, yeah, but you have the potential. You don't understand how much I hate potential. And like, you know, what I mean.

Speaker 3 00:36:22  Is you're like.

Julie Hanell 00:36:23  I've done it. I don't just have the potential. I have it like, I know this whole and through experience and that. Yeah, sometimes I mean, not to diss anyone's education, but sometimes experience can be very much a greater teacher. And. Yeah. So I hear you on that.

Speaker 3 00:36:45  Yeah, absolutely.

Jenny Dempsey 00:36:46  You know, 100%. And the thing is, we're not speaking about, you know, being a doctor or defending, you know, a case. It's like that wasn't the job. It was job was recruiting, learning how to recruit. And I think like being a student learning human resources. But I had actually, you know, real life experience. I had to hire people for the two companies I had built.

Jenny Dempsey 00:37:11  And so those were probably not the best people. It was best technique, but I had some type of experience. So I think, you know, learning to sell yourself, mainly learning to sell your skills and show the person who is interviewing you that you have a lot more to offer than actually just the job description, is really a plus. But that was tough.

Speaker 3 00:37:35  Yeah, that.

Julie Hanell 00:37:36  Sounds really tough. Like to continue to get knocked down and then you just gotta pull yourself back up, be like, no, I got this and you had the confidence, or maybe even moments when you didn't have the confidence. You still kept getting up and being like, no, this is who I am, this is what I can bring, and I am going to do it. Amazing. And that continue to show up because that can, that can really knock someone's spirit down. That can really somewhat. That's exhausting. And at some points it's just like so hard on, your self-esteem and it's just hard, like so I'm guessing though, because the other thing I hear a lot from other people who flip their careers is the supportive network that we have around us, the people that are cheering us on.

Julie Hanell 00:38:22  So can you talk a little bit more about because, you know, let's say people are knocking you down and calling and you have potential, but who's telling you you got this? Who outside of those people, like what was your your network of supportive people like for you at that time?

Jenny Dempsey 00:38:41  Not much, because I had, you know, I'd obviously lost a lot of friends moving to, you know, modeling and then coming back from South Africa. I left, you know, I didn't wait three months before leaving. I kind of packed everything up and then left. So my main support was basically my mum, my mum, who kept telling me, you decided to go leave abroad at 90 and you, you know, you went through so many things and yet you are discouraged by some white dude who's not wanting to give you a job.

Speaker 3 00:39:18  I she.

Jenny Dempsey 00:39:20  She, you know, she managed to pick me up and, you know, it wasn't a loving, you know, it was a loving way.

Jenny Dempsey 00:39:28  But it wasn't the, the soft super. It was just like stopping stupid, literally. And, I think definitely it It fired me up. I, I had this, you know, need to prove. And I had all my, you know, paperclips from the newspapers in South Africa and magazines when my, my companies were mentioned. So it was just a matter of, I guess, adapting. And ultimately when when you join a company, it's about learning how to play the game. And I think that is really hard when you're an entrepreneur because you set the rules, but then suddenly you're in a place where the rules are given to you.

Speaker 3 00:40:11  That can feel very constraining. Yeah.

Julie Hanell 00:40:13  And, you gotta play inside those those, those walls. And, when your mind thinks bigger and you color outside the lines, you know, in most other situations, that's just it can I don't know, it can feel like your creativity is just kind of being strangled in a way. And, that's hard.

Jenny Dempsey 00:40:35  But let me ask you. I mean, you have lived the entrepreneurial journey now. So it's we we on the opposite, right. So you started corporate and now you are entrepreneur. How like if someone came to you and said, here's a job offer, what would you say?

Speaker 3 00:40:52  Well, it's.

Julie Hanell 00:40:53  So interesting to put into that and I will. Before I answer that question, I will say that like the thing I've learned in corporate along the way was creating so much structure and process. And so I take all of that. And in all of the stuff that I am building, there is probably too much process structure. Like I'm still looking to create it, but I'm creating it for myself. And that is just been very interesting because then if I want to change it, I don't have to wait for it to get approved. I'm just going to go in there and change it and be like, all right, we're going to do this now. We're going to pivot. And that feels really good.

Julie Hanell 00:41:27  whether or not it works because I don't have someone being like, well, you're bonus dependent on this. And it didn't work. I'm like, well, I'm just going to figure it out. And so if someone came and presented me a job and to be honest, because I'm still, you know, a couple years into this, I'm still learning. And when you start new things, especially things like furniture flipping, which doesn't have a very, like early on that you're building a brand, people are getting to know you and trust you. And I'm in a very small market right now, so sometimes it doesn't make a lot of money. And the podcast itself as well, people have to learn to trust you before you can bring on, you know, different types of, revenue streams. And so that being said, you know, money still needs to come in from someplace. And I don't talk about this as much. So I'm glad you're bringing this up because, there is a part of me that sometimes feels like I should, I should, you know, in air quotes, I'm telling myself the shoulds which are not necessarily valid.

Julie Hanell 00:42:25  I should be making money on these things, but I'm just not there yet. And so if someone presented me with a job that fit into my schedule, that offered me flexibility to do it part time, and it paid. You know, I would absolutely take it.

Speaker 3 00:42:41  If.

Julie Hanell 00:42:41  That is what is going to pay the bills and fund my dream. You know, it may not be forever. It may not be something that is I'm pouring all of my heart and soul in, but I think that it is absolutely okay for people if they want something to come to fruition, to look for a job that's just going to pay the bills. And, but but I also have very high standards, like it's not going to be a toxic environment. I'm not going to be, you know, unable to take vacation time. I'm not going to, you know, settle for being talked down. I feel like it needs to. I still just have really high expectations of a great work culture of a great, you know, product that I want to support, something that I know.

Julie Hanell 00:43:24  so I yeah, my expectations are just very high. But I think the entrepreneurial journey. Sometimes you just have to get creative with how you're going to bring in money to pay the bills, to continue to make the dream happen, because it doesn't happen overnight and it's not always successful right away. And that's okay.

Jenny Dempsey 00:43:46  Brilliantly said. I think you brought up such an important point as well, where so many people nowadays have this idea of it's all, you know, all white, all black, like there's no gray area. And I think the magic of a full time job or a job in general is that you have maybe a bit more, you know, mental freedom to dedicate to either hobbies or a dream that you want to build. And, you know, I think the you need to have respect for those choices as well. You're not being a full time entrepreneur, for example, doesn't mean that you are an entrepreneur. I very much feel like an entrepreneur within my job and, you know, with the podcast that I have as well with Julia.

Jenny Dempsey 00:44:33  So it's nowadays I feel like this massive flexibility to really create a life for yourself. you just have to be picky and you have to know yourself. I think most of us don't really know who we are and what we really need and what fits us, and that's part of the journey. And I feel like that's where you are right now. It's like, okay, you've understood that if you're going to take a job, it has to maybe be part time. It has to have, you know, a certain criteria and most likely, you know, you'll get that job offer because the clearer you get about it, that.

Speaker 3 00:45:06  The.

Jenny Dempsey 00:45:06  Easier it is to call it.

Julie Hanell 00:45:07  Yeah, absolutely. And there's no shame in that. There's no shame in creating what you need in the moment. And going back to what we were talking about before that it can change. I love that, and I want to talk about something else really quick, not to change your subject, but you brought up your podcast.

Julie Hanell 00:45:23  We were talking about personal branding, and we're talking about carving your own path and really doing things. Also this entrepreneurial journey and doing things outside of our full time jobs because a lot of people listening are having those jobs and just think, oh, I don't have time to do anything else outside, or, you know, I think about this business or this podcast or writing this, and they don't start these things and you have so can you, can you share a little bit more about your podcast and talk about how that came to be?

Speaker 3 00:45:51  Yes.

Jenny Dempsey 00:45:51  So the podcast is very much about starting businesses, the hardships of actually getting started. It's not only businesses actually. It's also side hustles, hobbies. You know, to your point, a lot of people are thinking about how do I just get started? And a lot of people stay stuck in the strategizing, the thinking. and so we had this idea with one of my best friends, Julia, to just start this podcast called She Hustles in order to help our girlfriends who are thinking of starting something to get started.

Jenny Dempsey 00:46:27  And so it's mainly, you know, a podcast where both of us are speaking about our experience. She has her own business and social media and personal branding, and she's 24. So we have a nice age gap, which makes for really interesting conversations because I promise you her view of what the job you know, life is about or corporate world is very different from mine, which I think is fun to talk about. And so I think in general, yes, they are in that many hours in, in a day. And, you know, some of us have a lot of responsibilities. We some of us have children, I do not. So I also think, you know, that makes up for huge amounts of time away that I can dedicate to my, you know, side hustles and passions. But ultimately, again, it comes back to the regret piece. Like, I want to feel stimulated. I want to be in environments where I meet people like you, where I can talk about everything and anything and come out and be like, wow, I've actually learned something today.

Jenny Dempsey 00:47:30  I can, you know, go ahead and try that. And that is, you know, it also comes down to values. Those are some of my values learning and growing and, you know, feeling stimulated and meeting incredible people. And I think you pick that up at the beginning, like I am very much about community. I have friends all around the world, and we voice note every day and we, you know, chat. But ultimately they my community and I and I need that and I feel very bored if I don't have it. And boredom is that for me. So to be very to be very, very.

Speaker 3 00:48:05  Aggressive I can.

Julie Hanell 00:48:07  Sense that.

Speaker 3 00:48:07  Yes.

Julie Hanell 00:48:08  Like you also, can we talk about how like the power of voice notes, my girlfriends and I send those as well all day and just continue to chat. You pick up when you are, you have time and they listen when they have time. It's they are the best. It's definitely. And actually, maybe this is something that I heard in one of your episodes.

Julie Hanell 00:48:30  the accountability of that, like having an accountability buddy to be able to send a voice note to you about something you're working on, and then get feedback, no matter where they live in the world, no matter what time zone they're in. Like, thanks WhatsApp. Like for giving us the ability to to connect with people anywhere and everywhere and share ideas and support one another. And you not only do that, but then you created a podcast to, like, really amplify these things that people are learning and actually doing things about. They're carving their own path and getting the inspiration they need. And that's an incredible gift that you're bringing.

Jenny Dempsey 00:49:12  Thank you so much, Jenny. Well, I can say the same for your podcast.

Speaker 3 00:49:18  Well, thank you that that means a lot.

Julie Hanell 00:49:21  I am definitely honored to be in a situation where I can bring this out, and I want people to connect with you. Julie, I gosh, I feel like you just have so much, so much wisdom, so much heart that you pour into everything.

Julie Hanell 00:49:36  And I how can people find you? Where can they connect with you? How can they learn from you? All the good things. Share. Share everything.

Speaker 3 00:49:43  Yes.

Jenny Dempsey 00:49:44  So the place where I'm most at is LinkedIn. They can connect with me. My first name is Julie and then Janelle, and then our podcast is She Hustles Podcast on Instagram. And we have a YouTube channel and we obviously on Spotify, Apple Podcasts and so on. So those are those are the main places. Amazing.

Speaker 3 00:50:06  Thank you so much.

Julie Hanell 00:50:08  For taking the time for being here with me today and sharing this. It's so wonderful to connect with you. Thank you so much, Julie.

Jenny Dempsey 00:50:16  My pleasure. Thank you so much.

Julie Hanell 00:50:18  Thanks for tuning in to this episode of The Career Flipper to connect with Julie. Be sure to check out the show notes if today's story really clicked with you, or if you know someone who's trying to figure out their own career change. Do them a favor and share this episode with them. It could be exactly what they need to hear to keep trying, even when it gets really tough.

Julie Hanell 00:50:41  Also, if you ever want to just share more about you or your friends career flip, tell me about it. I want to know and talk more. Visit the Career flipper. Com to learn how to be part of a future episode. And remember, every teeny tiny, itty bitty step counts. It may not feel like it in the moment, but it really does. You'll see what's the best that could happen.