From mail carrier to customer experience leader, meet Michael Mattson in Hartford, Connecticut
Today on The Career Flipper, host Jenny Dempsey is chatting with Michael Mattson, whose career journey is a perfect example of how small, intentional shifts can lead to massive transformations. Michael started out as a mail carrier, delivering letters door to door—and yes, getting to pet all the dogs along the way! But beyond the friendly pups, he saw firsthand the importance of both customer and employee experience, which set him on a path of discovery and career growth.
With a high-empathy mindset, Michael made small leaps that took him from the frontlines of the postal service into a corporate customer experience role, and eventually across the country to become the Manager of Customer Experience for a global organization. He now also serves on advisory boards for multiple CX organizations, helping shape the future of the field.
In this episode, we dive into:
Michael’s story is a reminder that career changes don’t have to happen all at once—sometimes, it’s the little shifts that add up to something big.
Connect with Michael
🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelcmattson/
Automatically Transcribed With Podsqueeze
Michael 00:00:00 My values and what I wanted to deliver to the organization was no longer what the organization wanted or needed. And so it was a natural kind of fork in the road. and I decided that maybe this is my chance to to take that, take a leap.
Jenny 00:00:20 Welcome to the Career Flipper podcast. I'm your host, Jenny Dempsey. I am not some career flipping guru. I spent 18 years working in customer experience in the startup tech world, and I thought I had my path pretty much figured out. And then life happened. I got laid off, I started freelancing, I picked up furniture flipping as a side hustle, and then I launched this podcast. So I deeply understand how overwhelming, confusing, and downright exhausting yet exhilarating career pivots can be. And I'm still figuring it out. And that's exactly why this podcast exists, because I have so many questions. How do people actually pull off big career changes? How do they keep going when everything feels uncertain and self-doubt creeps in? How do they juggle all the side gigs with a full time job without completely losing their minds? Instead of staying stuck in my own head, I decided to just start asking people.
Jenny 00:01:19 Every week I sit down with real folks from all over the world, in all kinds of industries who've made bold career moves. We talk about what really happens behind the scenes, so that you and I can take the next step with a little more confidence and maybe a few extra tools in our back pockets. So if someone sent you this episode, if they shared that with you, that's really cool. It means they believe in you and whatever career pivot you're thinking about, you've got people in your corner, so grab your earbuds, get comfy, and let's have some real talk about flipping careers. Today you'll meet Michael Matson of Connecticut. He has had quite the career journey, one that started on foot, quite literally. He began his mail carrier delivering letters door to door. And bonus perk getting to pet all the dogs along his route. But beyond the wagging tails and daily steps, he saw firsthand the importance of both customer and employee experience. Not just how people receive their mail, but how the employees delivering it feel about their work.
Jenny 00:02:25 With his high empathy mindset, Michael started making small but meaningful career leaps. He moved into a corporate customer experience role where he focused on improving service and engagement from the inside out. Those small steps eventually led him to becoming the manager of Customer Experience for a global organization, and he presently serves on several different advisory boards in the customer experience industry. In our chat, Michael shares why mentorship matters how the right workplace culture can make or break job satisfaction, and why taking care of yourself is just as important as taking care of customers. Plus, we talk about the delicate balance of personal passions versus career moves because while photography has always been a love of his, he's kept it as a creative outlet rather than turning it into a job. So if you've ever wondered how small career pivots can add up to something big, this episode is for you. Let's get into it now. Hello, Michael. Thank you so much for joining me here on the career Flipper. How are you doing?
Michael 00:03:30 I'm doing swimming late and excited to be here.
Jenny 00:03:35 We're swimmingly. Yes, I love it. Well, so excited to have you here. Tell everybody who you are, where you are, and what you're doing these days.
Michael 00:03:46 Yeah. So, my Michael Mattson and I am Now with a major insurance company, but have not always been there and have, as we'll unpack here, kind of gone through some take a have taken quite an interesting path. Walked an interesting journey. but now I am trying to be really involved in the customer experience state, industry and and really networking with folks in this space and getting a few exciting projects off the ground. And, with 2020 ish and some other projects that I won't spoil it, you'll just have to watch out and, really trying to add value to the space and, and help people connect with one another.
Jenny 00:04:41 And you do an amazing job of connecting people together. And just just for some context, for everyone listening. Michael and I know each other from the customer experience industry and the the 20 ish meant the mention that he said here with Luke Jameson, who is a a guest on a past episode with his career flip from Baker to cattle wrangler to customer experience.
Michael 00:05:06 Quite an eclectic, past story he has.
Jenny 00:05:10 Yes. and so we know each other from that. But the 20 ish that I wanted to mention is a series of questions that you and Luke asked 20 customer experience leaders, 20 questions, and we all sent you videos of our answers to these questions. And then you guys put it together into this amazing series, which you posted week after week to bring us together, but also to educate the future of the industry. And it was fun and creative and again, a way to connect. And so I love that you do so well with that. So here's how we're connecting the dots between where you began in your career to where you're at now, seems like connection is just really a part of the picture. So let's just get into it. Tell us about your career flows.
Michael 00:06:03 yeah. So I've had quite an interesting journey. I let's just say right off the bat, I never expected to be where I'm at today. And I don't think a lot of people really do.
Michael 00:06:14 And it's it's hard to map that out when you're heading to college and you have to figure out your adult life and line everything up, and you don't really envision yourself ending up, advocating for customers and creating exceptional moments. Like that's not really something that comes to mind. So when I went to college, like I had a passion for photography, but I also knew that I needed to have good business acumen to support it, because I saw a lot of photographers really struggle with that and take care of their customers and really deliver business value, because they didn't really understand the, the mechanics behind it. And so I wasn't going to make that same mistake. So I went to I went to school for, for business, marketing and entrepreneurship and minored in communications. And so I was trying to create this perfect package of like, how can I enable my true passion of photography? And so I started, a couple photography businesses in college and, really tried to, like, hone in on creating scalable and sustainable businesses that, that, that captured these amazing moments in people's lives.
Michael 00:07:38 And so I was delivering, you know, these photographic services, but it was really about being in the lives of others and connecting with them on that emotional level and sharing those amazing moments and and capturing the magic of these very, very important days. And, and there's a lot of kind of vulnerability and intimacy to that. And so that was kind of my first taste of, of, oh my gosh, I love just connecting with people and sharing those experiences with others. And so after college, I ended up having to there was some kind of familiar, like family things going on, some health issues and scares and whatnot. And so kind of ended up just closing down the photography businesses and relocating to Colorado and, and tried to restart things, but it was very saturated And I wanted to be able to support my family more. And so I, I ended up getting a job with the Postal Service, because if you think about like, the epitome of consistency and reliability and like, you know, getting that, that regular paycheck so that you can just, you know, push cash towards, you know, supporting your family like that just made sense.
Michael 00:09:08 And so went that route. I became a letter carrier and which I of course, like how how do you even become a letter carrier? Like, like how do you end up there? but it was it was really kind of cool. I actually loved carrying mail. Loved it. and it was an added bonus that I met my wife while I was a letter carrier. And she was, she was a receptionist at one of my, at one of the businesses on one of my routes. And, and it was like love at first sight. I caught, you know, I like, couldn't get her out of my head. And so I wrote her a letter, and carried. And it did not have postage on it, but, I wrote her a letter that was unfilled with all, like, mail, like mailman puns, like all that kind of stuff. It was corny, corny, corny, but I, I yeah, but I ended up having to carry it around for like, nearly a month because, I didn't realize she just worked weekends.
Michael 00:10:09 And just because of the overlapping schedule, all that kind of stuff. So I carried it around in my front pocket, my chest pocket for a month, and, one snowy day, we found each other again, and I delivered that letter, and the rest is history. but from there, that was a little bit of, you know, just a plug for my amazing marriage. Don't worry about it. and, so, like, I loved being a carrier and really loved connecting with the community at large, and I thought it was such a cool experience being in public service and having that very, very important role, right. And seeing how when you kind of strip that from the role of being a letter carrier, you get like you're just putting mail into mailboxes, right? And, and I think some people could think of it that way. But what I learned there is that you are you're taking care of your community. You're connecting, the community. You're part of that connective tissue in a community, and you are delivering things that have extreme value to people from both financial and sentimental levels.
Michael 00:11:21 Right. And, it could be some of it's life sustaining medicine. Some of it's super important, letters to your your grandparents or to your, your family or or, you know, a long distance, you know, spouse or whatever, right? You're, you're you're connecting that. And, so I fell in love with with taking care of people that way. And I saw an opportunity within the Postal Service right off the bat that we could do better. And so that became kind of my driving mission is, is how can we bring that that connection back to this public service that has really become super, super focused on, the, the, the operations, right, and cost cutting and because it's, it's fighting for its life, right, as an organization and has insurmountable odds. And a lot of, you know, things pushing against it. And, but I wanted to to advocate for our customers and take better care of them and do my part. Right. Just straighten out my little take my little corner of the world and just try to make that a little bit better and, and connect with the employees that I was, that I, that I was circling around or that were circling around me to and and create a higher vision.
Michael 00:12:42 Right. And and engage people again. and so that became kind of my like my, you know, my march and, and I got into frontline management and I loved the leadership aspects and being able to, to take care of my employees and therefore my community as well through, you know, that employee engagement and employee experience. And by the way, at this point, I didn't even know customer experience as a practice existed. Yeah. So it was just like, these are just like things that made sense to me. And, and I definitely didn't know, like, employee experience was a thing and I didn't know any of this, but I got that kind of like that taste and then started doing a lot of research, and, and I, and I found customer experience and started teaching myself that And and bringing started bringing some of those principles back into the organization. And I wasn't really in a role that I had any formal authority to make change in that way, but I was trying to do it in informally and just engage people around the concepts, and it was getting traction.
Michael 00:13:49 And so I got some opportunities to to help out at the district level and get into different roles there. I was I piloted a customer experience, local operations center, for our district, and it was one of the first in the country and where we would actually take kind of this formalized, methodical approach to, to a terrifying customer experience impacting, conditions in the retail environment, or, you know, that front office, front facing, environments for customers and and helping those offices correct their, their practices correct, their their processes deliver better experiences. and that was, you know, there's long term strategy there to like investing and actually helping with continuous improvement projects and, you know, fixing them for, for for good as good as, you know, as sustainable as possible. And and then there was also the immediate like, we just need to alert them that this condition exists and they need to do something about it right now. Right to, to save, to prevent the the customer experience from, from deteriorating further.
Michael 00:15:07 And that could be like a wait time and line issue or, or any anything like that. Right? Yeah. and so that was kind of my first taste of like an operational approach to customer experience. and again, even that, like, I, I was just self-teaching the customer experience and bringing that in wherever I could And, and that led me into the consumer affairs manager role in, in our district and in Colorado, Wyoming. And that was like the role nobody wanted, because it was the role that led the group of, of represented as specialists that that took care of that most escalated customer complaints right from like congressional offices, from Postmaster General, you know, through those escalated channels. They're they're the most challenging, most complex. And in addition to doing that, supporting the rest of the field and taking care of all of their concerns, too, and and taking care of their customer complaints that they would they had ownership of. And so it was a role that nobody wanted. And I saw it as a challenge and something where I saw that vision of taking like really improving things to take care of their customers.
Michael 00:16:30 I saw that as a as my foot in the door to really formalize my, my impact and give myself that opportunity. And I was not wrong because it it opened the door to getting involved in a lot of amazing projects. And a lot of this came through the like the operational excellence, like continuous improvement channels. So it was really a kind of a formalized method like, you know, methodology behind it. And it gave credibility. And then you would also use that as a foundation to build, to, to build in some of this what they saw as fluffiness with the customer experience. And that was kind of my first introduction to, you know, that kind of perspective around customer experience was the the fluffiness around it. And, and so I really prioritized Approaching my initiatives in ways that were methodical. Very data. Data driven, connected to the organization's goals on, you know, financial goals and and all of that. Right. Really making those connections. And that's how I saw that path, right? That path forward.
Michael 00:17:48 And, did the same thing and move over to, this is kind of the first career shakeup moment, right? Was that our our organization went through a reorg and I lost my job in internally. I was not fired yet because they gave you certain amount of time to, to give yourself another spot, right, to get into another role. And so I was on the search internally. And through that time I, I applied for, I would say nearly 50 open roles internally. And so it was a it all of this occurred over a summer and so very condensed timeline 90 days, 50 jobs, tons of interviews, just trying to find a spot. So there's a there's a feeling of desperation of like, I will literally take anything. And then there was also the the hope and around like, maybe this is my opportunity to find that next best role. And interestingly enough, it was neither. It was literally the same role in a different state, a different district. And so I was like, okay, so you know, it like sometimes, you know, you don't have to make those sacrifices and do like step down into a lower level position.
Michael 00:19:11 and sometimes you don't get those promotions out of things like that. Sometimes it's literally just about survival. And but it was still kind of a refreshing, like a moment of refresh. right? It was. Even though it was the same role, it was like you reassess your your journey, right. And and you also feel a little bit less stable in your role so that some of that security from like public service kind of faded, like it started dissolving. So it kind of gave me a new perspective too. And so I really wanted to try some, some kind of bigger things. And so that role, that new role was in Connecticut and coming from Colorado and Wyoming district. And so it was a big culture change and a big mood. Right. And thankfully, my wife was was on board with the idea. And, we were both kind of excited about the opportunity to check out a new part of the country and, and, and try that out, and, and so far, so good, by the way.
Michael 00:20:21 loving it still. but, yeah, like, I wanted to approach it freshly. And so when I, when I came into the new role, as soon as I stepped into the state, I started visiting the local offices. And so I actually kind of made it a tour of as many local post offices as possible. And my goal was to have those tough conversations with frontline management, with frontline staff, with customers, and really build out my own understanding of the culture, the challenges straight from from their perspectives, before I even dove into any of the data. Right. And I knew that was going to be my next step. But I wanted to have that context, and it was a very, very beneficial, eye opening, experience that I am really glad that I, that I took the time to do that because it shaped my approach within that district. And, so I created a a good neighbor program. I was basically a mentor, like a mentorship program on steroids for our opportunity offices that were really struggling and pairing them with offices that that had similar situations that were that were not struggling so much.
Michael 00:21:39 And I wanted to initially kind of remove that mental barrier of, I can't do this because of all of these conditions. It's like, actually, you can and here's somebody who's doing it and we can work on this together, right. Kind of open up that that those opportunities and show them this new world that exists, that this could be right. Give them hope. Just a little sliver of hope. And so I had that in and through that whole process. That was a very successful project. we ended up moving our customer satisfaction from being ranked 40th in the Affirmation, to number one in the nation and about less than six months and and even even after that, we sustained we're staying in the top ten easily. Right. And so there's sustained, impact. And and so that was really my, my, one of my most proud moments was because I could see, like all of these, all of these things coming together, like connecting with other people, with employees, like doing all of that groundwork and and using that with continuous improvement methodology, bringing all of that together in this, this harmony to create real change, that added value to both the organization and our customers and our employees.
Michael 00:23:07 And so I saw it as a big like, this is a win win win situation. And so that's kind of like inspired me for the rest of my journey and, and ended up, you know, at that after a couple of years, being a postal service in Connecticut. It felt like it was it was time to move on and started seeing, like, my values. And what I wanted to deliver to the organization was no longer what the organization wanted or needed. And so it was a natural kind of fork in the road. and I decided that maybe this is my chance to to take that, take a leap. Right. And, and so I, I started looking for a new, a new role. And my biggest priority was on culture. And I wanted to end up with an organization that had an amazing culture that maybe it wasn't completely customer centric yet, but there was desire to do that. and I found an organization that that was very customer centric and had been moving it from a product centric organization to more customer centric.
Michael 00:24:27 And so it was a journey that I wanted to tag along with them on. And so I ended up taking that leap and jumping into this new opportunity. And, and it's been nothing short of incredible. And it's really opened the door for so many great things, both internally. And they're very supportive of being involved with the the industry community and doing things outside of work and, and building things. And, and we have a very collaborative process with that. And, and I have, you know, I am very transparent and respect that relationship and understand that, you know, I work for an with an organization that I have to respect the boundaries of that. And but I still want to do other things. And but overall it's just been incredible journey of of growth and, and it's not been a linear path and it has not matched any of my expectations. It's exceeded them at this point. And and it just goes to show you that, that you can't predict how it's going to like how your life journey is going to end up.
Michael 00:25:42 And sometimes it's it's going to surprise you in a very positive way.
Jenny 00:25:47 That is a great way to sum all of that up, all of the surprises along the way. And it's fascinating to hear, you know, when you began really leaning into your passion of photography and then making the pivot because of, you know, family and the values and wanting to be there. And then, you know, you mentioned you're like, I just need a job. Like you just needed a job, and you took a job because you needed that stability. And that led you to meeting your wife. That led you. Really? It sounds like when I was hearing you, you speak, Michael, that it sounds like it really helped shape a lot of those values of the connection piece of the people. I always look to say. Customer experience, customer service, just people helping people. And it sounds like the experience of literally walking, which maybe through the snow, it sounds like there was snow.
Michael 00:26:39 There was a there was some snow.
Jenny 00:26:40 To deliver mail to people, these important things that they need in their life, getting them from one place to the hands of the person of the recipient. It really shaped a lot of these things that then helped you develop these programs, to support the employees, to support the customers on a bigger level, and the Good Neighbor program that you mentioned. I mean, that's incredible. You took thriving offices that had similar challenges to ones that others were really struggling with and that might not make it. And like, yeah, you can do it. Even though these, you know, walls are up, you can knock these down. And here's how. And that type of mentorship, for a branch if you hear about that for individuals. And I selfishly hope the podcast is similar to that, where it's like we hear stories where you know, someone is has all these hurdles in their way, but someone else knocked them down. And you can't. And that leads into such a supportive culture, which you helped develop there.
Jenny 00:27:45 And I wonder, like on a personal level, all those individual employees there, how that ripple effect of seen the growth of, you know, an office start to thrive when they didn't think it could and then suddenly the people who are doing the work, I wonder how that impacted them individually. So I think just hearing the growth of your values and the shaping of that connection piece is really inspiring and also just it's so real. We can all do these things. And then the point that I wanted or the, the area that I wanted to touch on a little bit because I think a lot of us are in this situation where maybe someone's listening and they're like, yeah, this job isn't where I want to be anymore. And I feel that. But I'm, you know, taking that leap can be a bit it can be scary. And so when you mentioned that you started to feel like the it wasn't aligned with your values anymore, you had that feeling. You knew it was time to, to take a different path.
Jenny 00:28:48 What are some things that you learned looking back now that you learned made it so you felt ready to take that leap, that it was scary, but you still did it and it landed you in another great spot. but there's that moment where there's unknown and you don't know if it's going to lead you there, but you know, you got to go. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Michael 00:29:10 Yeah, I would love to. I think first and foremost, you don't ever feel ready that that readiness does not. That's you're not going to arrive at that sensation of, yeah, I'm 100% confident this is going to work out. to that point, you do have to become comfortable with some of that fear and anxiety. And, and I think what what I learned the most through that process was take care of yourself first. Take care of your own physical, physiological, emotional, mental needs first. Because if you don't have that foundation, you're not in a good place, then nothing. It's it's going to impact your ability to take advantage of opportunities that do come up and see things clearly and also use your network like use people within your your your circle and be vulnerable with them.
Michael 00:30:08 Share your your thoughts, reach out to them, ask for help, get feedback. And there are so many. I mean, there's a podcast about this. There's so many people going through this and you're not alone. And it can be very isolating to go through this and to feel that way of of I am not feeling like I'm in the right place anymore and I need to do something different to to get to that next step. don't don't try to do that alone. Like share that with your family. Share that with your friends. Share that with people you don't expect to understand. And most often you will be surprised at how understanding and supportive they will be. And and if you embrace that and realize you don't have to do this all alone, then Then you start with that kind of safety net, you can start really pushing yourself a little bit further out of that comfort zone and and taking a little bit more risk. And, and that's the thing too. And is when you take a leap, it doesn't always have to be a big leap.
Michael 00:31:18 You can hedge the risks, right? If you have a job that you don't like, then start looking and stay in that job. It's okay. Like just start looking. Open up your your prospects like start exploring those options and you still have income to support yourself and your family and your household and and you can take that opportunity. and when something comes up, then you can take that leap, right? You can seize that opportunity. You don't have to like, sometimes you're not lucky. Like, sometimes you're put in a position where you don't have that luxury. But but if you do have that luxury, then take advantage of that privilege. Right. Because. Because you're in a good spot and you're not you're not at risk of being, un homed or anything like that. And and you can you can, you know, you can you can push forward at your own pace what you feel comfortable comfortable with a little edge of uncomfort. Right. Always it's it's good to embrace that, that edge of being uncomfortable because that knows that shows you that you're you're growing, right? Yeah.
Michael 00:32:26 but you don't have to you don't have to take big, big swings all the time. Little swings are good too.
Jenny 00:32:32 Yeah. And I think that that is such great advice because we do sometimes feel like, well, we just gotta go all in. No, you can dip your toe in and still a stability. And I think that can apply to things, you know, whether it's looking for the next role at a different company or even these kind of like side passion projects, for example, photography, you know, or like even with my furniture flipping, like just created a website and I was like, well, let's see what happens.
Michael 00:32:59 Right. Right.
Jenny 00:33:00 You know, I didn't necessarily dive it right away. Yeah. It was I think there's these little things that we can still do on the side that challenge us, that going back to what you mentioned, show us that we're growing. We're willing to take these risks and push ourselves. A little bit of discomfort is so good for us to learn all about ourselves and how we show up in the world, and how we can give and even do more than we think we can.
Jenny 00:33:27 And so I'm kind of I'm curious now to where does photography fit in your life at this point?
Michael 00:33:33 It is still a part of me. It is a it's another limb. Right. And and it's always in my eyes. Right. Like I'm always seeing things through that, that lens per se. and sometimes literally right. but it's it's. Yeah. It's not. I realized that it wasn't something that I wanted as a career because, you know, after all, even though I had had kind of started down that path, I started realizing that I was losing some of that passion, that joy. And, and photography, any art is very it's a very personal. Right. And, and so it's easy to be to let the business side of that trying to monetize it. It that can that can have an impact. Right. Sometimes it works out great. And you, you get paid and you feel good about what you're providing. And you know, all of that like aligns. But sometimes it's like the, the the money side of things, the business side of things pulled detract from that.
Michael 00:34:37 And that's what I was kind of seeing was that I was I photography started being that career for me, and it wasn't so as much of that, but connecting with myself and connecting with others and just kind of losing some of that. And I didn't want that to be the case. And so it really kind of worked out that I took a took a step out of it so I could see that, and that I was kind of forced into the necessity to, to have some reliable income. And, you know, all of those things happened for whatever reason. but it gave me that opportunity to kind of see things a little bit more clearly. And, and now, you know, I do photography when I want to, and I do it for me, I do it for my family, and I, I do it to connect to the art of it. I do it to connect to, to the human condition, whatever. Right. And I do it for those reasons. And I just there aren't any expectations.
Michael 00:35:36 And I could just, you know, whip up, whip out the camera when I want to and just play around and just have fun.
Jenny 00:35:43 Yeah. That's beautiful. And it's it's like you said, it's so personal. And it becomes this way that you can connect and create on your own time. Do you ever find that it's hard to make the time for it when you're working full time? You have a family. There's obviously so many other obligations in life. I hear a lot from people there. I was actually at a conference not that long ago, and this one girl cornered me and she was just like, I love that you're doing furniture flipping because I'm an artist, but I don't make time for it and I wish I could do it. And then she likes me. Her Instagram. And I was like, this woman is incredibly, And she, like, doesn't have the time to do it. How how do you make the time?
Michael 00:36:27 Yeah. You know what? I would be lying if I said it was easy.
Michael 00:36:31 Right? And I think anybody that has. I think everybody can relate to that. Right. And and the reality of it is that life is like you have to be you have to be fluid in life, like you have to move where you need to move, like you have to do what you have to do to, to sustain. And and if you can kind of weave in, you know, those other parts of you into it, then then all better. But there was also some major kind of perspective changes that happened. And, you know, with the Postal Service, it's really easy to kind of lose that, that work life balance, very, very demanding work. And and, and I have having that experience I have so much respect for, for everybody in those roles and, and putting it in, you know, 14, 16 hour days, and you know, and holding up, performing these very, very critical, roles that, that help ballots get delivered to, you know, to town hall or that, that help, you know, Prosthetic legs get delivered to recipients and like, you know, that kind of stuff.
Michael 00:37:50 And, so but I had to start to kind of I didn't have any of that discipline with that, you know, time when I was with the Postal Service. And so I think that that's part of the thing, too, is realizing that some jobs you it's it's harder than with others to, to build that those boundaries in and you can do it and sometimes you should still try and sometimes it's literally just the nature of that work. And it's unavoidable to to really build that balance. And if that's not if that's not in balance to you, then then that's when you need to consider if it's worth it to you to to look for other opportunities that that have better balance. And there are there's so many different jobs in this world that have varying levels of responsibility and And require, you know, more or less time demanding, stress wise, physically, whatever. Right. And so it's really important to consider the fact that this is a big world, many opportunities. You're not in a role permanently like that's not part of your identity.
Michael 00:39:02 And I think as soon as you start stripping it, stripping work from your identity, then you can start making those decisions for you as a whole person holistically, right. And expand that and start making like, start defining your strategy, start defining your approach and like how you can get to that place where you feel balanced and your balance is going to be different from other people's balance, but you'll know when you find it. And so as far as like bringing in those other things, like you start to have more opportunities when you find yourself in the when you get yourself into the right spot, into the right positions, the right, Mindset and you start seeing those opportunities, and then you can choose whether to to bring that art or whatever your projects are into it. And if that brings you joy, any kind of value, whatever, then, then you'll keep doing that. And but I think it's really about the clarity of mind and seeing that, that there is no right choice in anything. You just have to like being reflective and trying to learn about yourself and and building yourself into a more emotionally intelligent human being that's connected with yourself and others.
Michael 00:40:21 That's going to help you find that right path. And I think it's really hard to start that journey of self-reflection, but you have to start that first.
Jenny 00:40:30 That's great advice and really shaping your values. And sometimes you don't know what they are especially, well, I would say early in your career, but I think it even applies to our you're evolving, you're changing and your values. Learning what you value and how you want to use your time can really only happen when you go out and do the things, is you can sit and think about it all day. You can pull up one of those word lists on Google, okay, what values? You can write them down. But if you're not living out there and like trying to do the things, it's hard to sometimes, well, for me and, you know, to really shape what matters and what doesn't until you go and try it and you're like, yeah, this doesn't work. Okay, now I have a choice. What am I going to do next? And how am I going to spend this time? And yeah.
Michael 00:41:17 Yeah, yeah. And it's really important to to realize that just because you find balance in one period of time, that's not always going to be the case. Right? Like you'll go through these ebbs and flows. These like life is that is is fluid. Right. And and realizing that just because you're out of balance right now doesn't mean that that's going to be your permanent state and vice versa. Right. And that you have to you have to keep investing in it to keep that balance and keep adjusting. And we're all human. I would imagine, everybody who's listening to this is human. although I hope there's some dogs and cats listening. but. Yeah. Right. Yeah. but but realizing that, like, you know, we, we don't always know, like, how to do things and we don't always know how to get ourselves to that, that place. And we don't always we're going to make mistakes. We're we're messy. Right? Like, we're just chaotic in a lot of ways.
Michael 00:42:20 And that's okay. And, but I think that just being conscious of it and remaining curious and, and forgiving with oneself and, the love of yourself. Right. And and not to get to, like, you know, sentimental, but like, there really is a lot to that is like, by doing that, you give yourself a lot of freedom to explore. You give yourself a lot of you. You support yourself and you. It helps you open up to others and and let them support you too. And all of that helps you get to that next place. And so even if you're just thinking about it as like, this is a very I have a very pragmatic approach. Like, I just need to take this career step, realizing that that's not really how it works, kind of expand that out and see that there's other variables you need to consider and, and get help with, with honing in that journey. And and it's going to pay off for you.
Jenny 00:43:16 For help, for being open to ask for help and support is hard, especially.
Speaker 3 00:43:23 It is.
Jenny 00:43:23 Making a change and it feels like chaotic and you're not sure how people are going to judge.
Speaker 3 00:43:29 You.
Jenny 00:43:30 But I can speak to experience as well that it is one of the most valuable ways to connect with people. You build stronger relationships. You get to know people on a different level when you ask for help, and also it gives you the opportunity to be available to help others more. When you're able to open yourself up. It's not just this one one way path where, okay, I'm going to help everybody, especially for us in these, you know, people centric roles where we're always like, hey, I'm here to help. But yeah, I also need help. And that is perfectly acceptable and ideal, especially when we're talking about career paths and and just life in general. It's so valuable. But you brought up dogs and I wanted to ask you question because my dog white is if we see the mailman walking down the street turns into the most well-behaved. I mean, he's a well-behaved guy, but let's just say even more.
Jenny 00:44:28 He sits and he waits because the mailman always has Streets.
Speaker 4 00:44:32 And,
Jenny 00:44:33 If it's behind a window in the house, he's barking like crazy. But the second he sees them on the street, he's like, let's let's do this tree thing. I wonder, do you have any, what was it like? Did you have any good, dog stories when you were out there back in the day?
Michael 00:44:49 yeah. First of all, there's it's really challenging because I'm such I'm such a dog person, and, and so I want to pet all the dogs, but, there's some hazards right, in that profession. And, you know, even if somebody says, oh, my dog's friendly, they won't bite. You can't always trust it because you encounter so many dogs and they're put in these, these really difficult situations because, you know, imagine, you know, somebody that's just confidently walks up into your territory, like, and you're triggered into that kind of like survival, like protect my, my humans and that kind of mode.
Michael 00:45:26 Like, they can be dogs you don't even recognize. Like like your dog you won't even recognize. But sometimes if they have, you know, they get treated and things like that, they can build those awesome associations. And, but as far as stories, I was bit by a small dog and it was not nothing serious, but, but so be aware of some of the smaller ones, like, you know, they might be small, cute and adorable, but, if you're wearing a uniform like that, then sometimes they, they switch, and are unpredictable. but then I also had this golden retriever that would come wait for me, at the mailbox and every single day and, and sometimes their, their other buddies would come to and they were just, you know, they're just so excited to come hang out and just sit there while I'm delivering the mail. And it was one of those, like, cluster boxes where there's multiple, you know, so you're kind of there for a few minutes and, you know, it's cool to just have that kind of sidekick and, and just be able to pet, some of these dog.
Michael 00:46:37 I don't even know what you know. What house, like where, where he lived. But he he lived there, right? He had a collar and and always went back to the same place. but it was, it was cool to have that, you know, that little bit of. I get to pet a dog?
Jenny 00:46:55 Yeah, that that sounds like minus the biting part. So that's only the perks of the job. I'm with you. I'm the same. I want to pet every single dog.
Speaker 3 00:47:02 Yeah.
Jenny 00:47:03 And. Yeah, but, Michael, this has been a wonderful conversation. Thank you for sharing so much. We have a lot. I have a lot to learn from you as well. I know our listeners are going to want to connect with you and learn more about you. And also I'll link to, well, definitely want to make sure the 20 ish if anyone's interested in customer experience and wanting to learn more from that series. I will definitely link to it in the show notes.
Jenny 00:47:30 But Michael, where can people find you? How can they connect with you?
Michael 00:47:34 Yeah. I am pretty active on LinkedIn. That's really my one of my main focuses. so definitely reach out to me, connect with me on LinkedIn. reach out to me. Message me. I have my Calendly link on my LinkedIn profile, so schedule some time with me too and we can just chat. I love just having conversations with folks and learning from them too. And just just like networking. so I'd love to do that. And that's also where I post any kind of updates about other projects that I'm working on. So you can kind of stay tuned on, on some of those things there.
Speaker 3 00:48:10 Incredible.
Jenny 00:48:11 Well, thank you so much. I hope I hope someone reaches out. I hope everyone takes advantage of that. That's really generous of you and thank you so much for being here. It's so great to talk with you.
Speaker 3 00:48:22 Thank you.
Michael 00:48:23 Yeah. No, an absolute pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Jenny 00:48:28 Thanks for tuning in to this episode of The Career Flipper. Be sure to connect with Michael using the links in the show notes. If you enjoyed this episode, share it with a friend who might need a little boost of inspiration, and make sure to subscribe for more flippin episodes like Michael's every week. And if you have a second, leaving a review will help the show reach more career flippers around the world. If you're thinking about switching your career into customer service, or maybe just leveling up your customer service with your own business, I've got online courses packed with tips from my years of working in corporate customer experience leadership. Over 16,000 students have already taken them. So if you want to see corporate Jennie in her old element, head over to the career flipper.com/courses to check them out. You know what I love most about doing this podcast really is just knowing that or are hoping that maybe these stories might be the spark that someone needs to inspire them, or break free from feeling stuck and really take that first step toward their dreams.
Jenny 00:49:33 I know it's really hard because I've been there, but whether it helps you grow or opens doors to something you've never imagined, that one step can change everything. So keep on your path, my friend. What's the best that could happen?