What happens when the career you’ve spent decades working toward doesn’t turn out the way you expected? From Ethics ThD to Tech Program Manager from Seattle, Washington, meet Julie Morris.
What happens when the career you’ve spent decades working toward doesn’t turn out the way you expected?
In this episode, Julie Morris from Seattle, Washington shares her career flip story of shifting from academia, where she received her doctorate in ethics and worked as a professor, to a whole new path in tech as a program manager. She opens up about facing a toxic work environment and how it led her to question her long-term plans. Julie talks about the importance of staying open to change, recognizing the value of transferable skills, and taking a leap into something completely different when your original plan no longer fits. Plus, she offers practical tips on how to explore new opportunities, from making a list of your interests to connecting with others in fields you’re curious about.
Episode Takeaways
Connect with Julie
Jenny Dempsey (00:00.088)
Do I make everything that I've worked for up until this point meaningless? Do I call it like failure or was it just worth nothing? Have I just lost years and years of my life? But there's another way to ask that question, which is how could this evolve into something different? And if I'm not even willing to ask the question, if I'm not willing to be curious and to like take a risk or like chance another direction, but I think that there's, I think curiosity can take us in some really interesting directions if we're willing to be open.
Welcome to the Career Flipper, a weekly podcast featuring career change stories from people all around the world, from all kinds of industries. We talk about how they get from point A to point B and all the twists and turns in between. If you've been thinking about switching careers, consider this your permission slip. And I'm your host, Jenny Dempsey, a career flipper myself. After many years working in customer service and experience leadership in the tech startup world, I got laid off and stumbled into furniture flipping.
taking pieces, headed for the trash, and giving them a second chance. If you're into that sort of thing, you can check out my furniture makeovers over on Instagram and TikTok under San Diego Furniture Flipper. I started this podcast because I felt really weird and alone when I switched from tech to furniture restoration. But as I've been flipping my own career, I discovered that I'm not the only one making big career path changes. So I figured why not talk to others and share their stories?
we all can learn a lot from one another. I know I'm learning in each and every episode. And I hope that each and every episode gives you a little actionable boost of inspiration on your own career journey. In this episode, you'll meet Julie Morris from Seattle, Washington. She shares her career flip story of shifting from academia, where she got a doctorate in ethics and was working as a professor, then pivoted to a whole new path in tech as a program manager.
She opens up about facing a toxic work environment and how it led her to question her long-term plans. She also talks about the importance of staying open to change, recognizing the value of transferable skills, and taking a leap into something completely different when your original plan no longer fits your life. Plus, she offers practical tips on how to explore new opportunities from making a list of your interests to connecting with others in fields you're curious about.
Jenny Dempsey (02:26.05)
You have a lot to learn from Julie in this episode. Let's get into it now. Hey, Julie. How are you? I'm great. How are you, Jenny? I am good. It's so good to have you here today. Can you tell everyone a little bit about you, the awesome you? Sure. I'm Julie Morris. I grew up in the Pacific Northwest area and was on a long-term track to be a professor and now am
a program manager at a major tech company. That is quite a flip. Yes. Yes, it is. Yeah. Well, I'm excited to dive in. We know each other through our mutual friend, Tracy Walken, who was on another episode. you know, it's just I love how we found each other, how she connected us. And yay for voice notes because.
Yes. That's how we've gotten to know each other over the past. So many voice notes. So many. I love so many things. Yes. They are the best. So, you know, since your story is very unique where you spent so many years dedicated to learning and the education track and to a complete shift, let's just dive right in. Julie, share your career flip.
I think it probably started for me in undergrad. I got the idea that I wanted to be a college professor. knowing that I wanted to do that, knowing that it was really competitive, I knew I had to get into a top tier school to have any shot at making it. And I was fortunate enough to get into Duke and got my master's and my doctorate from Duke, which took about 10 years. I did my degree in ethics. Through the course of that,
journey, I grew a lot as a person as you do, as you do in 10 years. I moved from the West Coast all the way over to the East Coast and had a whole cultural, you know, learning about different geographies and different people and their backgrounds. And as I was finishing up my doctorate and starting to apply for different professor positions,
Jenny Dempsey (04:49.742)
it's really hard. I've explained it as akin to like the level of competition for the specific narrowed field that you ended up being like, degreed in. It's a little bit like trying to make it as an actor in Hollywood. So I was trying to apply to these different positions and without getting too far into it, were some things that mismatched me with the field I was trying to get into. And part of that was
I think how I had grown as an individual along the way and some of the different ways that I was looking at my field. I think the long and short of it is, and we can kind of get into it more if we want to, but as I was teaching at a local university in North Carolina, I just started realizing that two things. On the one hand, my time in the classroom and teaching students and mentoring them was everything that I thought I wanted.
everything that I was hoping and dreaming that it would be. I loved it. I excelled at it. I kicked ass at it. And the second thing was that the political environment of higher education was not what I was prepared for and not what I expected. To put it mildly, was exploitive and very toxic. It led me to asking a lot of big questions about what do I want for my long-term future and what's sustainable and what can I even manage and cope with right now?
And finishing my doctorate, I graduated in the middle of the pandemic in August 2020. defended my dissertation on a Zoom call, was innovative and a huge bummer. But I think after a few rejections from some universities for professor positions full time, I just started asking these really big questions about like,
just having poverty exhaustion and being tired of trying to string together gig work with adjunct jobs and other summer jobs. And so I started asking questions like, what else can I, what am I still my fit for? Like what, what else could I do? And I think that's where I started applying and looking at jobs doing writing and instructional design thinking like I wrote a dissertation, surely I can write. So yeah, and that, that led me to a small tech startup company where I got a job as a content writer.
Jenny Dempsey (07:09.836)
an instructional designer. And then when you started to do that, what was going through your mind at that point around, you know, going back and still finding a role as a professor? you still like, did you settle in and you're like, I really like this, I'm going to stay put. Or was there a moment where you're like, actually, this I know this is temporary, I'm going to keep looking. No, I didn't know it was temporary. I was really worried that I would get really depressed.
that it wouldn't be a good fit and that in a lot of ways I would be like selling my soul, you know, for like something that was like an economic comfort, but would be like bereft of meaning. And so the way that I dealt with that and the way that I like kind of navigated that at the beginning was let's just do this for six months and it's six months we will have like a real honest check-in and just ask like, how are you doing? How is your heart?
Are you happy here? And I was like, and no matter the financial security, like if we're dying inside, we've got to go. Like we have to figure out a different way to like get back to teaching. But what's been surprising and like really interesting was that it's been great. Every six months of practice, I've continued about every six months I check in and like, how are we doing? Are we still okay? And it's really different. Like I have way different problems and way different stressors, but I'm doing great. I'm really.
happy with where I am. I still check in every once in a while, like, do I still want to teach? Like, is that something I want to go back to? And I don't think that's something I've ruled out completely. But the few brushes I have had with higher academia and higher education, I think have really just confirmed for me that that's not a good match, which is pretty wild, considering I spent so much time and effort to get to a place where I was credentialed to be able to do it.
Right. Yeah. All that time, all that money to go into that. And did that ever become the teaching and the education track? Did that ever become part of your identity, even as you stepped into these other roles where you had to kind of unravel a little bit? maybe you weren't like, what if I'm not a teacher? What if this is the path? Like, what does that mean for everything that I do teaching? Like, can you talk a little bit about that?
Jenny Dempsey (09:35.34)
Yeah, I know in some of our conversations, Jenny, like you and I have talked about, how do how do we navigate these kind of huge career shifts and like the connection to like the narratives that we apply to them? And I think one of the things that has it's come up, it comes up less now, but like it rears its head now and then, which is this this feeling like, like the the reason that you, you know, you couldn't hack it as a professor or what's actually true about you is that you're a failure.
And so like you had to go do a different career in order to like be able to make it. And I think that those are things like I confront and look at and like, okay, like there is some shame wrapped up here with leaving a career that I knew I had high impact. I knew that I was changing these young minds and like was filling a really important gap. And I knew I was on a fast track to burnout because of the political climate in higher education. And so like it's just been interesting and difficult to
confront those narratives and say like, well, what's actually true here? Like, I actually really do believe at this point that like, could have found a job, I could still find a job as a professor. But what is also true is that those, those elements that I named in that work environment were hurting me. They were not good for my mental health. They were not good for my heart. And like, I wasn't going to be, I wasn't like, if I was in, I could have also done the six month check in the professor job. And I think I would have
made it for a few years maybe, but it wasn't going to be sustainable long term. so holding that true and like reminding myself when those like worries of like you're a failure or like you couldn't hack it kind of pop up saying like, okay, like I see that I can confront that and like look at that. And also what's true is where am I having impact now? Like what influence am I having in my current environment? It's not like.
who Julie is changed. It's just that the environment that I chose to work in that was going to be a better fit for me long-term isn't what I imagined when I was 22. When you say it that way, it's like, well, yeah, duh. Of course things change. Yeah. And thanks for bringing that up. know sometimes it's hard to talk about the shame and that talking to ourselves, are we a failure? And even having those thoughts and
Jenny Dempsey (11:56.876)
Some of the things that I've seen come up while I chat with others are the breadcrumbs. And so where we start, know, yeah, maybe it didn't work out. Maybe, you know, at some point we had the same, you know, attachment to the failure title for ourselves or we felt the shame or, you know, the grief or whatever it is. But we started on this one pathway, went in particular direction, and it led us to a new path. But the things that we learned along the way.
The things that we did brought it, like we wouldn't have been able to get to this new path had we not been on this. So in turn, none of that is failure. None of that is attached to shame. everything is, it should be celebrated in fact. And so I'm curious if there were things for you that along the way you think you had to kind of navigate or learn in order to be at the place where you're at now to really shine and take the best care of you. It's a really good question, Jenny.
I guess what I will say is this, I don't think anything that I did before was a waste. I don't think that my previous career or the education that I got or what I learned is like useless now. And I think it has empowered me to succeed at the company I'm at in really amazing ways. And I see Professor Julie come online at work sometimes, and that's fun to see too. And I see my colleagues recognize it.
and look to me and say, like, can you facilitate this conversation or how should we think about this? And like, well, the way that people learn is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And actually just last year I had an idea for teaching a course to managers on how to build psychological safety. And I was thinking like, you know, one thing I had to do a lot as a professor of ethics was teaching young students who
haven't had lot of experience thinking critically around an idea, haven't had a lot of experience disagreeing with their classmates, but who also feel things really passionately. And we were going to be talking about things that were deeply personal to those students. And so how do you create an environment where they can productively disagree without feeling like they themselves are under threat or unsafe?
Jenny Dempsey (14:08.448)
A lot of that is skills that I self-taught and taught and learned in conversations with my colleagues who are also deeply invested in pedagogical practice, like teaching practices. And I was thinking after a few years in tech and in corporate, was like, these lessons are so translatable. There are direct correlations to how humans feel safe in a classroom, to how humans feel safe in the workplace.
And so I developed this course for managers that basically was like lessons from a professor and talked about what are ways that we can help our teams feel safe. And they loved the course so much that they referred me up to the head of security department and I led the course over there. And now we've created it out. We're trying to make it into something that's customer facing for the general public to use. so like there are, yeah, it's really neat. There are these ways that I'm watching.
The profession that I had before evolved and my ability to translate it into new environments and concepts that draws this through line or these breadcrumbs that you were saying that are validating in ways that I didn't expect when I was like, no, my path is going to be, I'm a professor, I'm going to teach students that this is how I will make meaning in the world to, I was a professor.
I learned a lot of things about how to teach and engage and facilitate conversations. And like now the environment where that's going to like manifest and take meaning is not the classroom, but it's going to be this new environment. And who knows what it will be in 10 years, but like the things that are true about me being a teacher and someone who wants to invest in people and wants to create meaningful change, that hasn't changed. Wow. You orchestrated that so beautifully. Thank you for sharing that. also congrats on the class. That is so
Cool. Thank you. That's amazing. And I love hearing how, yeah, you took what you knew and how it helped you evolve in this role and essentially help others and let your skillset and your strengths really shine through and be applicable to so many new areas to the point where, you know, it's helping the internal team and now it'll eventually help the external customer facing.
Jenny Dempsey (16:21.728)
individuals. And so it's just like that is that's huge. That's a that's a step and it's really cool to connect those dots and know that it's always evolving. And you've been matching and moving forward in 10 years, it could be different again. And that is perfectly natural and normal. evolving. And it doesn't have to be the one thing that you do for ever and ever and ever. It can be the things you're really good at and you can take them into other
realms and use those skills. And I think that's, that's an important aspect is a lot of, a lot of people will think like, well, I'm here. I don't necessarily like this, but this is what I do. And I'm going to stick with it. You just, kind of get comfortable or you're just scared or you have to provide for a certain thing or society expectations or what have you. And then, you know, you get to this point where you're like, I want to change, but I can't. So I don't know. I think it's a,
I just love calling it an evolution. think that that was it. think it is an evolution. I think one thing that I've really been challenged by in the last few years, connected to what you were just saying, is getting so locked into this idea that how I'm going to have impact was this one lane. And if I consider changing that...
Do I make everything that I've worked for up until this point meaningless? Do I call it failure or was it just worth nothing? Have I just lost years and years of my life? But there's another way to ask that question, which is how could this evolve into something different? And if I'm not even willing to ask the question, if I'm not willing to be curious and to take a risk or chance another direction, then you're gonna stay in that one lane. And for me, that would have been toxic burnout. For someone else, it might just be joylessness or...
feeling stuck. I think that there's, think curiosity can take us in some really interesting directions if we're willing to be open and, you know, I think risk other people's perception of us, which was also on the line for me. Did you have anyone in your life at the time you were making the kind of pivot that was not necessarily on board with your decision to move from one to another, or did you get a lot of support? How was that experience for you?
Jenny Dempsey (18:39.168)
It's hard to say, Jenny, because I think no one was explicit about it. And so I'm not sure how much was things I was just picking up on and how much was my own internal fears. But there it was definitely online in a big way, like worrying that like my colleagues who I had graduated with were getting professor jobs and I wasn't, you know, like they they stuck it out and kept applying. And I switched gears and did something else.
And then like even bumping into them like a year or two later, they'd be like, where are you teaching now? I'd be like, wow, surprise twist, I work in tech. And there's this mixture of like, feel really proud about that. And there's this mixture of like, yeah, there's this old narrative of like, I couldn't hack it. couldn't make it and they made it. I think, I mean, I've already said it, but I think what...
what I've had to navigate is what's true in my own internal narrative about that. And I think more than anything, that's what people pick up on. Like if they sense that you feel like a failure or worrying about it, like they're going to come back with concern or worry or judgment or, you know, depends on the person. But if you're owning that narrative and saying this wasn't a good match and I wanted to try something different and I wanted to explore, then I think what I'm learning is that
People don't care. They're just happy that you're happy. If they love you, it's a cliche, but it's pretty true and simple. Right. Right. I agree. Yeah. Everyone's very concerned with their own lives, and a lot of the times they don't even think about those things. I'm curious, with all of the experience that you've had and the flip to tech, is there anything that you would have done differently along the way now that you have this knowledge and experience? I think there's some things I wish I knew.
that I know now, I wish I could talk to me now when I made the switch, because I feel like it would have just been nice to hear, like, your skills translate. Your skills will always translate to a new environment. This is a very random anecdote, but like one of my colleagues that like ended up in a doctorate program with me switched from being like a literal rocket scientist and like was like, you know what I want to do instead is I want to go and get my doctor and be a teacher.
Jenny Dempsey (20:56.846)
And like the skills translated, like you wouldn't think it, but they do like, like her ability to study. And I mean, I can't really speak to her story, but, I can't speak to mine. And I, I think there was a deep, deep concern and insecurity for me that like, I don't know this field. I don't know this industry. I'm a little baby idiot who like doesn't know anything. And I think I presented that way at the first beginning of my career in tech. And I think now.
Like I own that like, no, I have 10 years of experience in this, in the field of education, in the field of learning, which is directly correlative and impacts my experience in tech now. So I did it. I minimized my previous experiences if it didn't matter and it does matter. so I think that's something that I, it's not like direct answer to your question, but I think that's something that I wish I had known coming in. I think I sold myself short. Yeah. that's.
That's incredibly powerful. think that resonates with me very much. because when you step into something different and minimizing those things that you do know because you don't realize that they are translatable until you do it and you're like, God, I know this. I think that there's a lot that people can take away from.
those words of wisdom that you would have shared with yourself. I'm curious, there any, if you had advice for someone who is maybe at that pivotal moment where they're the fork in the road and they're trying to think, which direction do I go? I don't want this particular direction, but I don't know the next step to take. Do you have any advice for someone in that situation? Yeah. I think a few things come to mind. I love lists.
So I probably would make a list of like, regardless of your qualifications, just bar none, write down things that you're curious about, write down things that like, when you think about them, you feel like a little spark of energy or you're like, I just kind of love that. like, and then, know, I don't know for me, when I do that, I'm like, I, the narrative immediately goes, but I couldn't because blah, blah. Or like, it would never make sense because well, I just, just, just be like, we'll come back to that in a minute, but we're going to sidebar that for a second and stick with the.
Jenny Dempsey (23:20.802)
the curiosities and the joys that spark for you. And then I think I would take that list and see if you can find people in that field to talk to who might give you more insight into what that might look like for that career. I think that would be a great way to start exploring. I think the other thing I might say is don't be afraid to be curious. And that the thing that helped me make that switch in the moment was a promise to myself that if it went horrible, I would get myself out of it.
I knew how to go back to what I knew. so you can always, there's a safety net in that if you have the flexibility financially to try something different, there's a lot to gain and not as much to lose. So I think those would be my two points. The list that's so actionable, it's something that anyone can literally pick up a pen right now and start doing unless.
listening and driving, you you can, you can create don't piss about kind of your driving. Right. You need time for voice notes. Right, exactly. Send one to a friend. Now I think that is, that's so true. And the one thing that also stands out that you mentioned, Julie, was talking to other people who are doing the things that you are interested or curious about. That has helped me so much. There's been just
people on instagram like there for sure but there's a cool I'm gonna reach out or they host podcast I mean I didn't know what I was doing with this. I talked to a lot of people beforehand and was just like how do you do what you do like literally that was my question and I love to talk about what they do and I think about what they do. You will get an insane amount of wisdom and just
practices that you can put and apply into your own life simply from someone who's lived it. It's like a gold mine, honestly. You're building a connection with someone who might be like, we got this internship or we got this job. Like, who knows? You never know. My job in tech came because of spin class. Yeah. I was mentioning to a, I think actually posted on Instagram that I was looking for a job in content writing and instructional design.
Jenny Dempsey (25:43.666)
And one of my, as a buddy I had made in spin class saw my post and she was like, my career mentor just told me that he's hiring. Do you want to connect with him? And I was like, yes, I do. So yeah, you never know where the connection is going to come from, but like sending those pings out into the universe can. Yeah. And asking for that support, like putting a post out, whatever it is. Cause yeah, you don't know who's going to see it. And if you ask, you don't know who it's going to, it's going to resonate with. So such.
good, good advice. Julie, you have shared so many, you know, the ups and downs and the advice that you bring is just, I don't know, I got like, it just kind of felt like my heart was just like bursting of like, you know, talking about the shame and, and, you know, the failure, but also how these things evolve. And it really just brings us kind of back to this, back to life in a way to be able to follow.
and do the things that light us up in sometimes untraditional ways. And I would love for people to be able to continue the conversation with you if they have questions and hopefully they take your advice and they reach out and talk. Julie, how can people connect with you? How can they find you? You can find me on LinkedIn, also on Instagram. It's juliar.morris on Instagram. Excellent. And everything will be linked in the show notes. Julie?
Thank you so, so much for your time and for being here today. Of course, Jenny, it was such a pleasure, such a wonderful and important topic to be talking about. And one podcast I wish I could have listened to a couple of years ago. Same, same. Thank you so much, Thanks, Jenny. Thank you for tuning in to this episode of The Career Flipper. Be sure to connect with Julie using the links in the show notes.
If you enjoyed this episode, I hope you'll share it with a friend who might need little inspiration. Make sure to subscribe for more flipping episodes like Julie's every week. And leaving a review while it might seem small really helps the show reach more career flippers around the world. Thanks for taking the time to do that. Okay, do you have a career flip story of your own to share on a future episode? Because I would love to have you on. So tell me about it through email over to hello at thecareerflipper.com.
Jenny Dempsey (28:06.88)
I can't wait to hear from you. And if you're thinking about switching into customer service or maybe leveling up your own customer service with your own business, I have my online courses packed with tips from many years of working in customer experience leadership. Over 14,000 students have already taken them. So if you want to see me in my old corporate element, head over to the careerflipper.com slash courses to check them out.
What I love most about doing this podcast is the chance that these stories might be the spark that someone needs to break free from feeling stuck and finally take that first step toward their goals. And I know that first step is tough, but take it from me, it's so worth it. Whether it helps you grow or opens doors to something you've never imagined, it's a step.
that can change everything. So keep on your path, my friend. What's the best that could happen?