From corporate HR to HR consultant, meet Megan Pawlak of Santa Barbara, CA
Let’s just say Megan Pawlak did not take the straight path to becoming a powerhouse HR consultant. She started out in food service, rolled through the corporate world, and eventually said, “Yeah... I think I’ll start my own thing.” Now she runs Benandanti Consulting, helping early-stage startups grow without turning into soul-sucking corporate machines. She’s a pro at finding the right people, saying the quiet parts out loud, and reminding companies that “professional” doesn’t have to mean “emotionally detached robot.” In this episode, Megan and I get into:
Megan brings the heat, the honesty, and a whole lot of human. Let’s flip the script on work — hit play! Connect with Megan
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Megan 00:00:00 I was doing what I loved, or at least I had fought so hard for. I was making great money, like the best that anybody had ever made, like within my nuclear family at least. And I was well respected. And I was miserable. And I was like, why does this feel so unfulfilling? Like, why am I so unhappy?
Jenny 00:00:23 Hello and welcome to the Career Flipper podcast. I'm your host, Jenny Dempsey. Just a regular human out here trying to make sense of work, life and all the weird in-between stuff. One messy step at a time. So here's the deal. I am not some perfectly polished career change expert, but I spent 18 years deep in the customer experience world at various tech startups, and I thought I had it all figured out, but I didn't. Then I got laid off. I had a big spiral and so I had to figure something out. I got resourceful, I started freelancing. I started furniture flipping. Check out San Diego Furniture Flipper over on Instagram and TikTok.
Jenny 00:01:05 If you want to see the magic. And I started this podcast because honestly, career changes are weird. They're overwhelming. They can be lonely, confusing, imposter syndrome inducing. And I had so many questions like, how do people pivot without completely losing their minds? How do you keep going when everything feels uncertain? And how do you balance full time work with side gigs and still, like, sleep and eat? And instead of spinning in my own little anxiety tornado, I thought, well, why not talk to people who've actually done it? So each week I sit down with everyday folks who've made bold, messy, brave, or totally unexpected career flips. We get into the good, the bad, and the what am I even doing moments. So you can feel a little less alone. Okay, now picture this. You started out working in food service. Picking coffee beans out of your shirt. And somehow, after a winding path of working in corporate HR, you end up founding your own people strategy firm and becoming an HR consultant, speaker, podcast host, Substack, Firestarter, and someone who's not afraid to say what everyone else is thinking about in the workplace.
Jenny 00:02:20 That's Megan Pollock. She's a professional career flapper in every sense of the word. She's the founder of Dante Consulting, where she helps startups like baby startups, pre-seed to series B scale with intention and humanity. She's got strong opinions, a knack for finding the right talent. And she's not here for the leave it at the door corporate energy. We talk about everything from owning your weird work history to consulting life, to what employers really need to do if they don't want their best people piecing it out. Spoiler. It involves respect. Clarity in a little compassion. Megan keeps it real, raw and very refreshing. Just how we like it around here. Let's get into it now. You know, Megan, we know each other because we worked together back in the day for a tech company and through the power of LinkedIn. Gotta love it. We've stayed connected, so thank you. Welcome to the career flipper. I'm so happy to have you here.
Megan 00:03:27 I am so excited to be here and have this conversation with you.
Megan 00:03:33 I actually very quickly remember when we were working at the same company. I had the opportunity to do some, like Southern Travel, and we actually went to dinner and we got sat next to each other at dinner. And I just even remember then thinking like, gosh, she's so cool. She's so special. And I remember just really loving meeting you. And you just bring this, like, warmth and like. Compassion to the work you did at the time. But I've been listening to the podcast and the conversations you have here. So I am so, so, so excited to be here. Thank you for asking me.
Jenny 00:04:09 Oh thank you, I that was such a fun dinner. You know, when working for remote companies, it's hard to kind of cultivate, you know, community sometime. And so when we were in person and I was so glad that we sat together because I felt the same way, I was like, you were just so much vibrant energy. You're amazing at what you do, but you bring such an authentic approach to it where it doesn't feel scary or intimidating in any way.
Jenny 00:04:34 And I just, I love that that was a great meal. That was so fun. So very cool. Well, actually, you know, tell everybody a little bit about you and how you, your career started and what you're up to now.
Megan 00:04:45 Yeah, I would say I am probably a professional career flipper. Burr. I've done it a couple times now I get into this mode where I kind of blow up my life every couple of years. But I will start with what I do now, and then I will work my way backwards. but I my name again is Megan Pollock. I am the founder, HR consultant and recruiting consultant for Ben and Dante Consulting, which is my own company. We are a boutique HR and recruiting consulting firm, and we focus primarily on Pre-seed to series, A venture backed companies and other small businesses. Our model is really oriented in that people matter from seed to scale, and it's never too early to build a human centered business. And so I work with my clients primarily on discovering great talent and really building that puzzle early on in the early stage, planning those seeds for the future.
Megan 00:05:45 I help with infrastructure and kind of some of the boring HR stuff that nobody ever wants to talk about. And then I also do a lot of focus on, leadership development, growth, organizational design, things like that, to really help companies build a solid foundation for the future. outside of that, I am like side hustle queen. I also do interview coaching with folks, so I work with professionals of kind of all different levels and backgrounds. Honestly, often a lot of people looking to pivot or going into different types of careers or go into their own business, own consulting sort of deal. So I've been doing that for I've been doing that for actually much longer even than my own company. And then I also have a podcast. It's called Off Light and Unfiltered that I co-host with a good friend of mine named Lakeisha. We can talk more about that later, but I also do, leadership training, speaking engagements, conferences, things like that. I basically live my life Sharing my very big opinions on how people can be more human in the workplace of the world.
Megan 00:06:52 So that's what I do right now. but how I got here, if we want to, like, roll back the clock is, you know, I actually grew up in a really low income home where college kind of, like, wasn't really a conversation. Like, I remember my senior year of high school getting paid to go down to guidance every day to go talk about, like, what my plan was going to be after graduation. But, you know, I did a little community college and things like that there. But going to the four year anniversary anniversary, university, getting the degree, getting the bachelor's degree, it just like really wasn't in the cards for me growing up. But I loved working. I had my first job at 15. I had three jobs in high school, like at the same time, I loved working. I had my first leadership position at 20, and I spent the early part of my career in food service. So coffee shops and movie theaters were kind of the two.
Megan 00:07:49 I would bounce back and forth between threading projectors when film was still a thing and running these what are were essentially small businesses. but, you know, in my mid 20s, I just always knew that there was more out there for me. Like I was bored, I was under stimulated. I was tired of picking coffee beans out of my bra every day. And I just really wanted a career. Like a career beyond food service and not to Knox Food Service. I loved doing what I did. I loved being with people. but I really did some self-reflection and I was like, what about what I do now? Do I really love and what do I think I could be doing better? And it was all the people things I loved hiring, training, mentoring. I had built training programs for a lot of the stores and companies I worked for, I was I had trained other managers. I was the annoying person in the franchise food service environment that would call HR and say like, hey, this new policy is illegal in California or is really not employee centric.
Megan 00:09:00 I was always the squeaky wheel asking for more pay for my staff, and so I kind of like took all those pieces that I knew I was really good at. And I was like, HR obviously, yeah, I think I can do it better, I love it. And so I had really kind of like put my nose to the ground and I was like, okay, I'm just going to go get an HR job. But not having a bachelor's degree was actually a really big barrier for me. I was able to get a couple interviews, but was consistently told that the degree requirement was firm, and I was like, all right, well, that's not going to work. So then I, I will condense this part of my story, but I essentially found HR adjacent jobs. So I ended up as an office manager for a moving company for a little while. That had an HR component, and because I had done the PNL and the financials of running coffee shops and movie theaters, that was really transferable.
Megan 00:09:56 Then I was I went to a staffing firm to say, hopefully that's enough for my HR job. It still wasn't. But they hired me to be a recruiter. And so then I worked in staffing for about two ish years, which was a really cool experience getting to recruit for all different types of companies. Then I hated that job because I hated the sales part. So then I got into a university job that was probably like my first, quote unquote, really hard job. And then I was kind of sort of poached into the company we worked for, which was an ag tech startup. I the power of networking. I complained to a friend of mine that I was bored at my university job, and she just sent my LinkedIn to the hiring manager of like a job that was being hired. And next thing I knew, I had a phone call one day and onsite a week later, and then a job offer in my hands in like three and a half, like three weeks, basically. And then I was dropped into my first super, super real HR job at a growing, rapidly growing startup.
Megan 00:11:07 when I started, we were about 60 ish employees, and I was the second, quote unquote HR hire. And when I left, we were 550 people in 11 countries. So I was part of that rocket ship, if you will. my time kind of came to an end there. And then I ended up getting into a tech company. So then I got to do the big girl HR job in, in the tech industry, which was something I really wanted. That company went public, and then I got to go through the bumps and bruises of that. And, I at that point in my career, I was doing what I loved, or at least I had fought so hard for. I was making great money, like the best that anybody had ever made, like within my nuclear family at least. And I was well respected and I was fucking miserable. Miserable. And I was like, why does this feel so unfulfilling? Like, why am I so unhappy? And there were a lot of other things that kind of led to my decision to leave corporate America.
Megan 00:12:18 But the biggest thing was the way that I do H.R., I realize, is a bit different, and I just never really felt like I fit, like I never really felt like I fit in. And I always felt like my morality was always kind of at the surface level of being tampered with. I'm very employee centric. I think that that's the way that you build a strong business, and the higher you get up the corporate HR chain, the more that that becomes a hindrance. And tired of the politics, tired of the bullshit. So in short, I kind of rage quit. I had a series of events that happened in short succession that I was just like, it's not for me anymore. You know, this just isn't for me. And my happiness is more important than my paycheck. And so I left my job. I told myself I was going to take a sabbatical and really reevaluate my life, and I was probably going to leave HR for good, and I was going to start all over again.
Megan 00:13:20 That lasted a month, and I was like, you know, why don't I try consulting? Yeah, I like the diversity. I like helping different people. I love startups and I love that like early stage where there's so much passion and there's so much ambiguity and there's so much energy to build something great. And I do believe that every decision you make in that early stage is a seed you plant for the future. And I want to be part of planting those seeds for good. I want to help people build better businesses. So the average human being has a job that they don't fucking hate. And so I started my own company. It's been almost two years now. Probably by the time this releases, I'll be right around my two year anniversary. And it's the best decision I ever made. The highs are high. The lows are low. But I'm so happy. Like I'm so happy professionally. It's the best thing I've ever done for myself. My clients are amazing. My work is really cool.
Megan 00:14:24 And it's worth it was worth the risk for me. And every day I wake up excited to go to work. So hopefully that was a to log. That felt really I was trying to keep it tight.
Jenny 00:14:35 That was. That was great. I mean, you really highlighted the ups and downs, first of all, because that's like the real deal of it. Like there are things that we like. There's kind of this golden thread that weaves through your story of like, you want to lift people up, and you also want to take good care of yourself while you do that, and you want to enjoy what you do, and you want other people to enjoy what they do. And you saw that that wasn't necessarily happening, but you wouldn't have known that had you not gotten into those, you know, corporate roles. And and I really like how you brought up Rage Quit. I think that that is a big thing that comes up because we get to this point where we are just so unhappy that we get pissed off, and maybe there's resentful, I'm sure, you know, whole lists of emotions like that that are there, but it takes so long to get to that point.
Jenny 00:15:26 And the fact that you brought that up and just kind of owned it, because some people kind of like try to stuff that under the rug like, you know, no one wants to talk about that. That's a little uncomfortable, but it's so real. even for the the good jobs, like, there are times where we are just like, this is not the right fit for where we are in our lives anymore. So you took the initiative, and I, I also I'm cracking up. You're like, oh, I'm thinking of reevaluating, you know, everything. I maybe not being HR anymore. I want to take the sabbatical. And after a month because hearing how you were like, I mean, back in high school, you just want to work and you want to give your time to good things and you probably get bored easily. And so I'm guessing, like in that month you're like, yeah, no, like I need to do something. and I guess, like, if you could just touch really quick on this idea, like when you thought about going into consulting, because, you know, starting your own thing, what was going through your head at that point around, like, the things you needed to do, like building a website or finding clients or, you know, how are you going to pay for things? Or do you need to be an LLC versus sole proprietor? Like how did you, you know, high level? Like how did you figure that part out? because that is also a big part of starting your own thing.
Jenny 00:16:44 And that's a lot to kind of dig into. Can you talk about that a little bit?
Megan 00:16:50 Yeah. You know, one of the joys of being an HR is a pretty good about rules, or at least knowing what they are and knowing how important they are.
Jenny 00:16:58 Yeah.
Megan 00:17:00 you know, I always knew that, like, corporate HR wasn't going to be my forever, but I always thought I'd probably make it a little bit longer than I did. I've I've always knew that, like, going out on my own in some capacity was probably where I was going to end up eventually. and I, I had been saving money to do something because I knew I was unhappy at my job, and I knew that I had fallen and out of love in my career, and I knew that just going into another job wasn't going to fix it. So I knew, like a radical change was coming from me in some capacity. And so I had, for the most part, I had a specific financial target where I wanted to have six months worth of salary saved up before I left.
Megan 00:17:52 Yeah, I had four. So again, don't I will say I don't recommend doing it the way I did. I probably should have planned different. But you know, sometimes you just gotta bet on yourself. But yeah, a couple things. I mean, I think one of my biggest takeaways and I'm gonna say it right here for anyone considering entrepreneurship, you are going to get so many opinions that are going to be completely contradict each other to the point that it's going to be maddening. And so all you can do is make your best judgment. Do what feels right in your heart and just fucking go for it. So I did an LLC. I might be switching to an S Corp next year based on finally getting a good accountant, right? So that was the change I made. I did some research on like, just what the bare bones needed to do. So I filed a business license. I came up with a business name. I set up a website through Wix. It's like not the most user friendly, but it's not that bad either.
Megan 00:18:56 I think the biggest piece of advice to I would consider giving anybody thinking about entrepreneurship is like, get a business bank account, get a business credit card, keep that stuff separate because it just makes it so much easier and it takes away a lot of the risk, you know? And I did I filed with the IRS. I did all of that good stuff. and then it was really funny. I'm going to tell a quick story real quick. I, I had signed up for what's called the Score Network. And so it's like society. It's like a network for small businesses and things like that, and they had offered me a mentor. It comes for free. And then I was like, scrolling through. I found one guy that, like, had some overlap with some of the stuff I did, and it was actually the call I had right before my first, like, big client proposal pitch meeting like the day before to like, see if I was actually going to get a client. And this guy who was supposed to be like my mentor, like he sold my imposter syndrome to a thousand.
Megan 00:19:58 Like when I told him I had done all the things I needed to do to be like a legitimate business, he's like, well, you probably should have made sure you can make some money first before you did all that. he also told me I was charging too much to where I've been told by many people I charge too little, you know. Again, conflicting advice. He took issue with my business name because he said it wasn't air enough. And I'm like, motherfucker, who says I'm stopping here? like we're thinking big picture anyway. And it was one of those situations where just because someone has experience does not mean that they are the authority and what you should be doing or what you should be building. Thankfully, I was in this like really badass women's networking group at the time and there was this gal. Her name is Jasmine Lopez. We interviewed her on my podcast. She's awesome. She hopped on the phone with me and like, helped me get back on the right. And she's like, nope, fuck that guy.
Megan 00:20:52 You're doing the right thing. You're on the right path. but yeah, honestly, all of my clients have come through networking. Like that's the other thing I say to people is your network is so, so, so powerful and people want to help you. Like I thought, a lot of people in my life and my family were going to be like, why would you leave your job like you're successful? You've made it. I always carried this like big pride of making it this far without a degree, and the big tech company and all that stuff, and I was just walking away from it. But like everyone I knew was like, no, this makes sense for you. Yeah, this makes sense for you and friends, former colleagues, family members. I have a coach. She's been incredible. They all really rallied behind me and, like, made me really. I mean, I knew I could do it because I have like, blind ego because I, like I couldn't do it any other way.
Megan 00:21:54 I knew I couldn't go back to where I was, but knowing how powerful my network was and how much people believed in me, like, really pushed me in that direction to like, take the jump. And I just started networking. I started talking to people. I was telling them what I was doing and what I was building, and all of my clients have come through referral. and some I have had sales coaches that blind. Email me saying that those eventually dry up and yada yada yada. Well, two years in, I'm still doing okay. And I've just really been focused on the tracks tribe. I had someone say that to me early on, so I'm like very authentic in how I present things I'll know within the first phone call if someone's going to be a good fit for me or not. And I the reason I do what I do is I now have the power to walk away. I have the power to not work with the people who don't see the future of work the same way I see it, and don't believe in treating people like people and not like numbers.
Megan 00:22:59 And so I think like staying really true to my values, doing a lot of research and just like always making sure I believe in myself is kind of how I got through, like the admin burden of just like building it, but then also like finding my voice and finding what I was actually building.
Jenny 00:23:19 Hey, quick break for a not so sneaky plug. If you've ever worked with people. Hi all of us! My customer service training course is on Udemy. Might be your new secret weapon. Their short real talk style and packed with lessons from my years in the customer experience and customer service trenches. You know, awkward moments and all. Over 16,000 folks have taken them there under 60 bucks. And yep, they help keep this podcast running. Check them out over at the Career Flipper. Your future self and your customers will thank you once again. That's the career flipper. Now back to the episode. Yeah. Wow. Hell, yeah. That's incredible. The power of network. Seriously? For clients, but also just your own support.
Jenny 00:24:16 Like, right there. like that is. I mean, who you surround yourself with can sometimes make or break it when you're starting something because you're so, I don't know, so vulnerable. And so, I don't know, it's it's hard and so it can break you. But hearing that, that that mentor, your quote mentor. yeah. That is that's an important note, for anyone to really be careful who you take that feedback from, and to take everything you hear at the grain of salt and really lean into your intuition, but also like, yeah, just be cautious who you're talking to. Thank goodness that you didn't listen anything that person said, because poof! But,
Megan 00:25:01 Yeah, it really it really rattled me and it rattled me before what was probably going to be one of my first, like, most important conversation I would ever have as a business owner as like someone trying to do it on my own. And, you know, again, to what you said, like it's okay to take in like input and feedback and advice from other people.
Megan 00:25:21 But you you have to do what feels right for you and you have to do it your way because that's why you're doing it. And so when you own every decision, you make it feel you can lay your head down at the end of the night and not really toss and turn, I'm like, you know, I have those nights of like, we're still doing this, we're still doing this, but I, I always know that every decision is mine. And when you work in corporate, especially corporate HR, very few decisions were mine. I often had to defend decisions I didn't agree with or that didn't align with my values. So yeah, keeping that moral compass and that like I'm doing this because like in the back of your mind, I think is really, really critical. If you do want to take that job to go out and do something on your own.
Jenny 00:26:13 Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I'm curious, you know, with all of that said and you and where you are today, was there ever a fear in your mind of like, well, what if this doesn't work out? Doing my own thing.
Jenny 00:26:26 Like, could you go back like what would you do next? Like, was that ever a thing that popped in your mind and, and have you seen that with like, you know, maybe people that you're working with as well that are like in and out of different corporate roles and entrepreneurship and like what is that like kind of across the board for you and, and for what you've seen working with people?
Megan 00:26:51 Yeah, I love this question. I love this question so much. I did not think probably enough what if this doesn't work out? But that's also like people who know me and know my personality kind of know that that's I sometimes I just think like, blind confidence is the only avenue. but of course, I, I had made jokes that like, there's always lift, you know? Yeah. but but it is true. And I would be a liar if I didn't think about it every once in a while of, like, to set the stage for me personally a little bit. I am a classic dink.
Megan 00:27:26 Dual income. No kids. don't want them. Don't need them. I rent my house. My rent is thankfully on the old. It's not cheap because I live in a very expensive place, but it's lower than it could be. And I live a very, like, loose life. Like I don't have a family. I don't want one. I'm not looking to buy a house like. And so I have and my partner has a very stable university government job. So I always say like he's bonds I'm stocks. So like I have I feel very privileged to be able to take the risks that I take. But that said, you know, I know of a lot of people who've tried to do what I do and then eventually go back into corporate because they need A41K, or they need insurance or they need all these different things. So, there's no judgment for me to people who go back in and out or choose to do that or have to do that. But yeah, you know, I'd be a liar if I would say, as a recruiter, there's actually a really interesting article about it, and I'll send it to you so you can put it in the show notes.
Megan 00:28:33 But Korn Ferry put an article out not that long ago, and it was called The Entrepreneur Penalty, where they did kind of like a blind survey of recruiters and companies, and a lot of them had said that they see, entrepreneurs, like if someone was self-employed, like seeing it as a bad thing. the, the stereotype, if you will, is that like those who go into entrepreneurship or these like side hustle side gigs, like they quote, don't play well with others or they're not team players or they don't like to have a boss. And like those things I think can be true, but I think it's such a narrow viewpoint. And to go back to like my staffing life, like, yes, I was trained that I was trained to avoid. Granted, this was almost ten years ago now. Yeah. I'm old. we were trained that, you know. No, you want to avoid people who are consultants or entrepreneurs or whatever because of these things. I think in a post-Covid world, especially with so many people, I mean, Jenny, I think you're a great example of this, right? Like, you had to go into, like an entrepreneurial path because you got bills to pay.
Megan 00:29:44 Right.
Jenny 00:29:44 Like, yeah, a lot.
Megan 00:29:45 Of people had that choice taken away from them. And so I do believe there's an evolution. I think there's more conversations like this one where if you if someone wants to go back into the corporate world, you can do it. Not all recruiters will hold it against you. I think the biggest thing though is like your message and how you market yourself for that opportunity. I think one of the biggest things that entrepreneurs or freelancers or whatever can do when they're going into an interview, trying to get back into the corporate space, is really showing that they have a high degree of empathy and understanding for how business works, because they had to do it themselves. Yeah. And so you will always come in as a candidate that understands the big picture, because you did it at a macro scale on your own. And I also think when I putting myself in the recruiter shoe, so like that was like my own personal anxiety shoe. Now I go into the recruiter shoes.
Megan 00:30:52 I my job is to bring my clients diversity of thought, diversity of background, diversity of experiences. And I am always looking for someone who jumps off the page because they're special, and running your own thing is hard. Or having like, we're talking about people who kind of flip to different industries. You might think that looks poor. I find it compelling. Or the average recruiter might be like, oh, this person doesn't know what they want to do. I'm like, I want to talk to this person and figure out how they tick. I want to figure out how they got from here to here to here, because you bring in so many unique experiences and perspectives when you've been in different environments. you know, I'll use a quick personal example where I was working on a role for a client and we were having a hard time finding, like, the right person. And one of the candidates that had, you know, a great portfolio and all these things. They had also been a copywriter or like an editor for, like plays and like theatrical productions and things like that.
Megan 00:32:07 And I was like someone who has to make edits and changes around the sensitive ego of artists. And I say this as an artist myself, like, that's someone who can talk to anybody. That's someone who can deescalate something, that's someone who can find a way to deliver difficult information. Right. And so good recruiters, I consider myself a good recruiter, know how to see the value of those different experiences. And when I'm working with interviewing clients, you got to learn how to sell, why you're special, why you're different, why you see things differently. And that's really hard because it's hard to talk, talk about yourself. I one quick note I want to make, like I mentioned, I've been working for with a coach for many years, and in our first meeting I was going through my whole background, and one of the reasons that I got a coach is because when I had been promoted to a director level, I just was so appreciative that I had that opportunity, because I think a lot of people who grew up like I grew up and came from a background like mine wouldn't get that opportunity, and I didn't want to waste it.
Megan 00:33:23 I really wanted to, like, maximize my potential. And when I went through my story, much like I did today, she was like, you seem so apologetic for your background. She's like, you seem like you're apologizing that you come from food service. Why is that? Yeah, and I had to really reflect on that. And it wasn't that I was like, ashamed of my food service background, but I never saw that as valuable. And now I realize it's probably part of my secret sauce because I came from such a hands on, human centric environment where you can't pay people very much, so it's very hard to get them not to quit. And you have to focus on like building a good culture to get people to stay, because that's how you run your business and you're dealing with the public. So you're dealing with like assholes all day long. So like learning how to mitigate conflict and things like that. And so that would be for folks who are like, apprehensive about their background or their different experiences.
Megan 00:34:30 Or maybe you've hopped around, don't apologize for that. Like, say your story and see if it has an apologetic tone. You should be proud that you have had the ability to do so many things, because it does make you special. I truly believe that.
Jenny 00:34:49 Yeah, gosh, that's such a good call out. And I think for anyone listening who is a people pleaser or semi-retired people pleaser, where we feel that we have to have that tone for a lot of things in our work that have worked out or have not worked out. and to have that someone call that out is really powerful. and also just. Yeah, such a good reflection lesson. I haven't thought about it like that. And it's actually as you're talking, I was like, oh shit, how am I telling my story? Like I've been, just for some kind of context. Like, you know, when starting your own business, there are a lot of things that come up. And I had, like, a nice bucket of savings to live off of.
Jenny 00:35:33 But at some time that gets toward a, a threshold where I'm like, I don't want to go under. And so I've been looking for like part time jobs, for example. And, when you're looking for the part time job and you're sharing, you know, what you do, or someone looks at your link like my LinkedIn page talks about my podcast, it talks about furniture flipping and it talks about the customer service and experience leadership that I've done. So it's like quite a blend. I'm still working on fine tuning that, but in the meantime, that's where it's at. So when these people look at it, they're like, yeah, like we get it. You have a lot of great experience, but you're one foot in, one foot out kind of person. And I was like, well, what? What does that mean exactly? Like I would be I'm a great, loyal employee. I'm great at what I do. And and I'm also doing these other things. But what's funny is that I also heard that same thing come up when I worked in corporate.
Jenny 00:36:29 And I like also had outside things like speaking at conferences or, doing webinars for other companies about my knowledge, writing a customer service blog where sometimes these things come up and we have opportunities to really, you know, enhance our career development, our learning, our ability to be thought leaders in a particular space, whether it's in corporate or entrepreneurship. But I was always apologizing for these things like, oh, I'm sorry to bring this to you, but I have this speaking opportunity coming up. Would it be okay if I do that? It's not going to take very long. I'll do it outside of work. I would always approach it like that and all the time. Well, for the most part, I'd either get a big fat. No. I think we need you here to stay or I would get it. Well, okay, you can do it, but you need to take unpaid time off, whereas I see, you know, other people in other departments would be going to conferences and, you know, getting everything paid.
Jenny 00:37:21 And and so it was always like how we approach it. And I just I really am glad that you brought that up, because the things that we have done in the past, all of those skills, just as you've explained, can be repurposed into ways to help us in the future. And you are a shining example of that. The thing, our core beliefs, our value systems, but also all of these experiences, whether, you know, food. I worked at coffee shops as well and like the things that I learned there, I feel like became so important, helping me do tech support on the front lines where customers are chatting at you. They don't see your face and they're screaming in all caps. But I was able to navigate situations simply because of experience I had standing in front of someone, serving them a hot coffee and they weren't happy. And so really reevaluating our past experiences and looking at them from that angle, I think is a great callout. Megan, because I have not necessarily thought about it in such an angle of, well, how do we actually communicate that? Are we apologizing for these things? Do we feel shame somewhere in there, even though these are really great things? Just because maybe we're projecting what we think the other person is, assuming that you know how they see it.
Jenny 00:38:34 And so, yeah, it's a it's a little bit of a hard pill to swallow and to own up to. But there's shame attached to that for sure.
Megan 00:38:44 Yeah, I think a lot of my career was centered a little bit around like releasing shame and just like moving forward because again, I, I was always ashamed. I never got my degree. I was a little ashamed. I came from food service like I did. I went through a big part of my career where I just didn't feel like good enough. And this led to, I think, some unhealthy behaviors that I had where I was a really big workaholic. I was like always trying to be the first one there, last one to leave, take on everything, save the day show. I can do whatever you throw at me. ET cetera. ET cetera. Because I think I was trying to overcompensate for something that I didn't need to. I frankly didn't need to, because I think. I think I'm a better HR person because I've had to move a theater of 250 drunk people from one venue into the other because I couldn't get the interlock to work for hangover two.
Megan 00:39:39 If, you know, you know, like, I've had these, like, really weird experiences that are so outside of your typical corporate space that require that, like, I hate saying resiliency because I think it's like a really like sticky and gross word at this point, but like resiliency and creativity and and those sorts of things. And that's what makes me good at what I do. I don't want to gloss over the thing that you just talked about, where there are employers out there that maybe they're threatened by, or they look down upon their employees that do have these side hustles or side gigs or things like that. And, you know, my response to that is like, hey, that's just kind of bullshit. Like, you know, if someone is doing the job and doing it well, it shouldn't fucking matter what they do outside of work. And a lot of times for someone like you like going and speaking at conferences and things like that, like that's positive PR because you're going to say, and I work at this company and it's really great.
Megan 00:40:35 Right, right. but I also think one of the biggest things that I've learned in my career, and I work really hard with other people, and we talk about it a lot, like on my podcast Is you have to know if you're in the right place and the right space for you. And I do not believe that employment is a top down thing. It is a contract. You need me. I need you. And you should make sure you're in an environment of mutual respect. And if you have a boss or a company that respects you, they'll celebrate you and all the cool shit you do outside of work. They won't make you feel bad for it. And to me, that always just signals like a lack of trust. Like, oh, so you don't trust me to get my job done, even though I have these other things I'm passionate about? Or again, like some kind of intimidation. It's like, oh, well, she gets really good at that. What if she gets another job? Like, what if we lose her? But you don't realize that you're, you know, you're treating that person.
Megan 00:41:38 You're going to lose that person if you're treating them like that anyway. And I think a lot of employers shoot themselves in the foot where they scare away their best talent because they try to hold them too tightly, or they try to use excuses like, well, we think your priority is here. We think that's a distraction. And so I would just say to anyone who might be in that situation, like, really evaluate is like, does my employer trust me? Am I being paid for a job or how many hours I sit in the seat? And those are two very different things. And like, am I in a situation of mutual respect with my employer? And if the answer is no. Maybe go find someone who will. Because I do believe that those companies are out there too.
Jenny 00:42:24 Yeah. Yeah, that's a really good point. Just to see it as as a contract. Like we're doing as much for them as they are for us. And it doesn't have to be one sided. But I think and I don't know if it's the same for you, but when I went into the workforce, that was not what I was taught, I was taught.
Jenny 00:42:41 You go in and you work for them, and you do everything you can to make sure that you're the best employee ever. Doesn't care. It doesn't matter how they treat you. You need to do a good job. Like your job is is the most important. So I just went in from that angle. And especially going into the customer service world, you're taught like you're there to serve. That is it. You're there to serve everything else in your personal life. You leave, you know, outside when you come in, that doesn't matter. You are there to serve and that is your job. And so I think now, these days, and especially since Covid, like, we've really had this reevaluation of what it means to show up at work and it being this mutual contract. And at the end of the day, sure, it is just business. Businesses will still make decisions. There will still be bad leaders, there will still be tough places to be and mistakes made. But we have more of a choice, I think, to how we want to show up, how we want to contribute.
Jenny 00:43:41 I was talking to someone just the other day, and maybe this is a little controversial, but she has a job that pays really well and, you know, it's got its fancy benefits. Part of its remote a little bit in the office here and there. Hybrid. but she hates it. And so and there are parts of it where she's like, I, I'm not, you know, being heard for particular things, different responsibilities and what have you that she signed up for when it was in the job description, you know, and now they're giving her other things to do. So she mentioned that she's doing she's like, well, I'm kind of just giving 75% of myself to this company, if that. Maybe some days it's like 50%. And how that's also totally okay because you're still showing up, but how that's becoming more normal. And I just hear more of that from people like, I don't like my job, but I'm here. I need the money. I'm only going to give them, you know, a certain percentage of my abilities, because it's just not worth it to sacrifice it.
Jenny 00:44:40 But ten years ago, 20 years ago, when I entered the workforce, I never heard of people saying that. I heard you give 110%. That is what you do. That's all you have access to. But now we're like, really talking about a lot less because we're not getting as much from some of these. Some of these companies that we work for that are probably companies that are you wouldn't work with you personally as your your business just because they're probably not aligned with more of this human centered approach to how how we bring people on and how we treat them at work.
Megan 00:45:14 Yeah, I, I talk to my clients, my company, clients about this a lot because I know I brought it up in my tip a little bit, but I do think the future of work is changing, and my focus is to work with organizations that recognize that and want to be part of that change, rather than resist it. recently I gave a keynote where I talked about this in a lot of detail. And, you know, I have a section where they'll leave it at the door.
Megan 00:45:41 ERA is over, like. And if you look at and not yet, I'm not here to get political or depressing or anything like that, but there are so many challenges that the average person is encountering. child care. Child care crisis, right? uptick in mental health diagnoses. elder care crisis. Most, nursing homes are, like, severely understaffed. People can't get doctors, housing and stability, financial institutions, yada yada yada yada yada. It's kind of sucks right now, right? Yeah. And my belief in, like, employers can't fix that and nor should they try. Right? You can do things like stipends and things like that. But like again, I work with really small startups that can't afford that kind of stuff. Yeah, but your job shouldn't be on the list of things that really suck in your life. And I think more people are beginning to realize that and more people are willing to take the risk to do Lyft or Uber, to just get a bunch of, like, side hustles and side jobs and just figure it out.
Megan 00:46:45 Then to stay somewhere, like with a domineering boss or a shitty culture or a place that impacts their mental health, etc.. And so my message to employers is, don't be that added stressor to someone's personal life, that you don't have to be. And you also need to recognize that people are different now. They want different things out of the workplace. And so if you want to have that competitive edge, if you don't want that staff of people only giving that 75%, you have to treat them like they're humans. You have to treat them like they're adults. You have to be compassionate. You have to think about their career and what they want and like, make it a two way street, or they'll go drive for Lyft instead. And I think that it's really important for leaders to recognize that, again, in this post-Covid world, things have really changed and they've changed in ways we don't even know yet. There's been a lot of studies recently that having Covid or having long Covid has begun, like has affected people mentally that like they don't have the same like capacity that they used to like focus and things like that.
Megan 00:48:04 Like there are just going to be so many things that are going to happen over the next couple of years that are going to impact your employees personally, that you have no control over. And I'm not saying that means lie down and let people do what they want or whatever, but I find that employees are looking for three things. I run a lot of trainings on these pillars, but it's respect, clarity, compassion. Show your employees you respect them, respect their time, respect their careers, respect them as human beings. Clarity. Know what their job is. Make sure you tell them what their job is. Tell them when they're doing well. Tell them when they're not. Feedback is a gift. It's important. Be clear with your employees and then compassion. Just remember, we're all human beings. At the end of the day, just trying to do our best. So if someone has a spouse that passes away or something terrible happens to them, don't be knocking on their door like three days later and saying, when are you coming back to work? Or if you do a massive layoff, which a lot of companies had to do.
Megan 00:49:06 Make sure a person talks to all those people and really focus on how you're going to rebuild culture for the ones left behind. Like, I do think that companies can do it better. A lot of them won't. But if employers want to stay competitive and have the best people in this new world, they have to do these things. And my hope is with more voices like yours and mine and people really getting out there that we can make better companies for people to work at. Going forward. Yeah.
Jenny 00:49:37 So so well said. So well said. And I am guessing that a lot of people listening who are thinking about flipping their career and starting their own business can really take that into consideration as they think of who they want to bring on the team, how they want to build a company culture for what they're willing to flip to and begin. So I think this is valuable across the board for for all different types of people, whether you have a full time job and a side hustle, a part time job, and something on the side, or if it's just extracurricular activities, even just doing something that just makes you, you and you have a job, how do you show up and how do employers show up for you? So, Megan, I feel like we could like, talk for hours about this.
Jenny 00:50:21 Like, this is so great. Thank you so much for being on here today. I know people will probably have more questions or want to talk with you more. How do they find you? How can they connect with you? How can they listen to your podcast too?
Megan 00:50:34 Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Thank you for the floor. And this is such a great conversation. And I feel like I could talk to you all day too. I love these topics. but yeah, again, my name is Megan Pawlak. Last name. You can find me in a couple different places. if you are a pre-seed to series, a venture back startup, and you want to work with someone like me for your people strategy. You can find me on my website. It's Ben and Dante consulting. Com. you. There's a forum. You can find all of my different services and offerings if you want to listen to my podcast. It's called Offline and Unfiltered. we talk very similar to this podcast. We bring on different people of all different backgrounds, and our focus is to help humanize the workplace through truly unfiltered conversations.
Megan 00:51:23 It's a lot of fun, and you can find that pretty much everywhere you find podcasts And if you want to just connect with me personally, if you're looking for coaching, if you want to start your own thing, if you just want to tell me about your favorite coffee that you have a Starbucks you can find me on, LinkedIn is like the I'm kind of social media averse in most spaces, but you can find me on LinkedIn. and lastly, if you enjoy my strong opinions but you don't want to listen to them, you can also read them. I have a Substack. It's human first word workplace, Substack.
Jenny 00:51:56 Com amazing. Megan, thank you so much I this is great, I appreciate you. Thanks for being here.
Megan 00:52:04 I appreciate you, Jenny. This was so fun. Thank you.
Jenny 00:52:08 Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Career Flipper podcast. To connect with Megan, check out the links in the show notes. If today's story hit home, or you know someone who's stuck in their own career limbo, share this episode with them.
Jenny 00:52:22 Seriously, it might be exactly what they need to hear to keep going when things get messy. Plus, knowing they have you in their corner can only help them more. Oh, and if you got your own career flip story, or maybe you know someone else who has one, head over to the career flipper.com to see how you can be part of a future episode. And hey, remember, every tiny step counts, even when it doesn't feel like it. You got this. What's the best that could happen?