From corporate communications specialist to career change author, meet Kathleen Goggin from the Washington, DC area.
Have you ever had a really good job, maybe even your dream job, take a turn for the worse?
I’m so excited to welcome Kathleen “Kate” Goggin! Kate’s a pro at navigating career changes, and she’s here to share her journey and some hard-earned insights on making career shifts work for you. Kate’s background is wide-ranging—she’s worked in radio and TV production, web writing, outreach, media affairs, and consulting. She’s taken all the lessons learned from those ups and downs, along with her experiences within her life outside of work: moving, raising a family, health and caretaking, and poured them into her book, “10 Little Rules When Good Jobs Go Bad”, a guide to help people handle tough job situations. Kate’s all about self-awareness, compassion, and community support when it comes to creating fulfilling career paths, and I think you’re going to love her perspective!
Connect with Kathleen
Jenny Dempsey (00:00.064)
In that case, I was able to sort of drill down and come to the point where I realized that I was feeling successful on the outside, but not on the inside. That was what I really needed to work on was my own sense of accomplishment and success internally. to the Career Flipper, a weekly podcast featuring career change stories from people all around the world, from all kinds of industries.
We talk about how they get from point A to point B and all the twists and turns in between. If you've been thinking about switching careers, consider this your permission slip. I'm your host, Jenny Dempsey, a career flipper myself. After many years working in customer service and experience leadership, I got laid off and stumbled into furniture flipping, taking pieces headed for the trash and giving them a second chance. If you're into that sort of thing, check out my makeovers over on Instagram and TikTok under San Diego Furniture Flipper.
Okay, but I started this podcast because I felt really weird and alone when I switched from tech to furniture restoration. But as I've been flipping my own career, I've discovered that I'm not the only one out there making big changes. So I figured why not talk to them and share their stories? We can all learn a lot from each other. So I hope that this gives you a little actionable boost of inspiration on your own career journey. Have you ever had a really good job? Maybe even your dream job?
suddenly take a turn for the worst? Or maybe you've thought about making a career change but weren't sure where to start. I'm thrilled to welcome Kathleen Goggin, or Kate as I refer to her in the episode. Kate is a seasoned career changer and she's here to share her experiences and insights on navigating career transitions. She emphasizes the importance of embracing the journey rather than just adhering to a traditional career path.
With a background that spans radio and television production, web writing, outreach, media affairs, and consulting, Kate has seen it all. She's also the author of 10 Little Rules When Good Jobs Go Bad, a book designed to help people navigate difficult job situations. Kate highlights the value of self-awareness, compassion, and community support in making successful career moves. And make sure to stay tuned to the end of the episode.
Jenny Dempsey (02:19.758)
We'll be doing a giveaway in the month of December, 2024 to win a signed copy of Kate's book. Let's get into the episode now.
Jenny Dempsey (02:35.15)
Okay, I just got to start this by reading an excerpt from the back of the book. You take every job assuming it's a good one, yet at any point your intuition tells you something has changed. It could be the organization, it could be you. Regardless, only you can fix your work and your life. And in the book that you wrote, Kate, 10 Little Rules When Good Jobs Go Bad, you show us how
to rewrite your own career with 10 rules that have helped you throughout your career, the changes in life and work. And I'm so happy to have you here on the Career Flipper to talk all about it today. Thank you. Yeah, again, thank you so much. I said I'm a little bit obsessed with your series and I'm really enjoying it. So thank you for having me. I feel honored.
I would definitely describe myself as a serial career flipper. And that would be in the writing and editing field. I also have an insatiable curiosity about the world and how it works. And that has really helped me to gravitate toward this wide range of topics. Some of those include international affairs, natural resources management, even science and technology.
And I've been able to do that both in the US and overseas. And that has mostly been in within the government sector. Okay. So there are global flips, there are moves, there are different industries. Kate, that's a lot. How did you make all this happen? Thanks. Yeah. The, I would say I started in the radio and television production world and a little bit of video conferencing back in the day.
I then flipped into web writing and web content management and technical writing as well. And then the third flip was into outreach, media affairs, and ultimately spokesperson for national agencies. And my most recent flip has been into consulting and book writing. So I want to just sort of...
Jenny Dempsey (04:54.68)
throw a frame over all of that, all of those jobs that have a little bit of freelance writing sprinkled in there. I was supporting my husband's career, which took us overseas and outside of family, two lovely boys. So I was always trying to fit my career into some sort of straight line or corral it into some sort of direction. And that never worked for me. My reality never reflected that.
And it was really much more of a patchwork quilt. And it took me a really long time to accept the fact that if I could just look at it that way as more of a journey than a destination, then that led to a lot less stress and a lot more job satisfaction. So my most recent career flip is more from the full-time consulting work to project-oriented work.
And that would include the book that you were mentioning. know I referenced it earlier, but can you talk a little bit more about how your book came to be? Sure. So the book is called 10 Little Rules When Good Jobs Go Bad, Learn, Grow, and Reclaim Your Power at Work and in Life. And if you flip those, it's really, that's what the book is about. It's how do you reclaim your power and your at work and in life when you are
trying to recover from perhaps the best job that went south or not only does it go south, it is something that can affect your financial life, your personal life, everything all at once sometimes. And it's not only something that could be generating from you, but it could be from the organization. So everyone has had a bad boss and everyone has had rotten coworkers.
But there are also shifts that are happening within us all the time that perhaps that good job that you started with goes bad. And I just want to point out that, you know, all of us, we take the job assuming that it's a good one, yet at any point in time it could change. And this book is really for anyone who wants to prepare themselves for that gradual change that's going to happen, no matter how good your job is really. And
Jenny Dempsey (07:22.656)
You can learn to do that through this book, which is also not only a memoir and 10 short stories that help people reflect on their own career journey, but there's also a guided journaling experience at the end of each chapter with resources that help folks write their own rules. And those questions were, I mean, sucker punches for me. There were three.
Three things that kind of came up for me around the questions in the book. The first one being, ooh, I haven't thought about that before. That's really interesting and probably really good for me to think about. Second one was, ooh, no, I've thought about that and I'm gonna sweep that under the rug. I am not ready to answer that yet. And then the third question came up was like, ooh, what would my life be like today if I had thought about this question 10 years ago?
how would I have moved forward with my decisions from that point if this is something that would have been in my mind? And so, you're in a role, you're supporting your family, and you're making these changes, and it's kind of like any relationship, over time we evolve. And how do we want to show up? How do we want to move on? And what does this look like for our careers? And I know a lot of people listening, especially around this time of year, we're getting up to the new year and...
A lot of us are thinking, you know, I'm not really feeling this career path anymore. I want to change, but I'm not really sure what else to do. And so I'm wondering, you know, when we talk about evolving and shifting our, our mindsets based off of experiences and things that show up in our lives, you know, could you speak a little bit to the decision-making process of all this and, and what's it like when you have that light bulb moments that this just isn't
working for me anymore. How do you start to think differently about where you're at and start to make decisions toward something else when you're not really sure what you want to do? I would say that we bring our whole self to the job. And I think that's frequently overlooked, that you're going to bring not only your skills, your knowledge, your abilities, all that great experience,
Jenny Dempsey (09:47.394)
but you're going to bring your family and your personal life and whatever happens to be going on in your life phase. So I think the more that we can sort of consider the life phase in relation to the opportunity for ourselves, that's a great way to approach it. And we don't, we're so obsessed and so focused and I shared this in the book that,
trying to buy a house in the Washington DC area, holy cow, it was just brutal and really, really completely competitive salary driven, right? And so I just find that with each life phase, you have these shifting priorities and these shifting interests. And it's pretty common for everybody to kind of...
de-emphasize those deep desires and those deep interests. And they're still percolating underneath. And of course we all are gonna follow our hobbies and our interests and that sort of thing. But to answer your question about the actual decision-making matrix, so to speak, for me, I just found that there was just this gnawing
interest in writing my whole life. And it was something that I couldn't really quiet. And I was always trying to fit it into the jobs that I was doing. And I was really fortunate to do that in a lot of really interesting roles. the kind of writing that I'm doing now is much more satisfying and much more deeply interesting because it's connected to who I really am.
Yeah, I kind of envision it like this. Like you're writing all day at work, whether it's technical or something else. And yeah, it's, it's writing, but it doesn't really sound like it feeds your soul. And after a while you realize that you still want to make time for the things that do matter to you. But by the time you got home, you're wiped out. And even the thought of like setting up an easel or working on a writing project, creative writing project feels impossible. And
Jenny Dempsey (12:07.286)
I mean, then there's family responsibilities and hearing, you know, from you and knowing from like friends and family, you know, with kids, for example, like there are so many things that come up and more responsibilities and unexpected things like illness and creative passions can very easily get shelved. And I think a lot of us, especially parents and caretakers totally feel that like that resonates. So my question,
Kate, how do you make time for even a little room for those things that really call to you, even if it's just like five minutes a day? I agree completely. And I was just thinking that, you know, there's really no right thing. There's just the right thing right now. And you have to really, like you say, give yourself grace, give yourself space. And you have to tap into the things that do energize you. And that's not
something that I did. I have to say that I really grew up in the office. I started working when I was 15 and I was going full speed ahead for quite some time. And I have to say that, you know, I also grew up in a time when that it was, you know, compartmentalized. You're really encouraged to keep your personal life personal and not share that in the office. And
And we see how that ended up. Right. And of course, and of course, the wonderful thing about, you know, the COVID times and the remote times is that it did introduce us to a whole nother way of working in a whole nother time. But back to the items that energize you and keep you going. I mean, for me, it was, you know, things like journaling, walking, connecting to nature.
And then later I was able to really fan my flame of interest in writing and allow myself to sort of build a community that wasn't work focused, that was more interest focused. And joining writing groups and spending more time reading and spending more time learning about writing, it just opened a whole new world for me. And it's just...
Jenny Dempsey (14:32.406)
Like I say, I'm having the time of my life now and I really don't think that I can go back to my previous setup. Yeah, that resonates a lot. For me, getting laid off was a hard pill to swallow, especially when everything I thought I was working for suddenly felt like it didn't matter anymore. And I love how you found energy in journaling and walking and connect you with nature. These things are...
important and it highlights how, you know, shifting our identities can really open up our ability to make time for these types of activities and how to build community around them, things outside of work. So I'm, I'm really curious, you know, how did you, how did you kind of chip away or how did you navigate this transition? And I don't know, really, really kind of just lean into everything that was happening even when it was
challenging. How did you shift that identity and evolve? Right. yeah. Wow. You're really hitting all the high points there about the whole shift in identity, right? That you have completely devoted yourself to a particular role and to doing well, and then it doesn't work out. And then there's the emotional impact of that, whether or not it's your fault. It's certainly
you know, everybody knows what life is like in this crazy changing market, right? That part is really, I can completely identify with that. And I had so many moments where I was also changing my identity. And I remember one particularly where I was in what I thought was going to be my sort of dream job. I had reached the top of my organization and
in my particular specialty. And I had found my people and I was so happy with them. And I was so honored to be on this elite. was, you know, happy to be there, but it was understaffed and it was under, underfunded and the usual story. And I was working a lot of weekends and I was working over time and that sort of thing. And even though that was all happening at the same time, I was still having these sort of
Jenny Dempsey (16:57.902)
cravings of more independence and something else that maybe I could be my own manager, my own boss. Even though was attracted to management, I was thinking, maybe I could do that myself. Yet I was afraid to make a step out. I was afraid of how to do that and how to make ends meet, how to pay the bills in that sort of a...
a flip. I did get a lot of good advice from a career coach and from Mission Collaborative, which is sort of a career restart weekend that was so helpful to me. In that case, I was able to sort of drill down and come to the point where I realized that I was feeling successful on the outside, but not on the inside. That was what I really needed to work on was my own sense of
accomplishment and success internally. think that when you say you own your new identity and you own your new direction, I think that you have connected with that, your own sense of success, what success really means to you, because it's different for each one of us. Yeah, I'm figuring that out right now too. Like what does success actually mean to me? It used to be very straightforward, know, promotions.
bonuses, climbing the corporate ladder. You know, don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking any of those. I'm very grateful for what I accomplished along the way. But through my experiences over the last couple years, you know, my view has shifted and I really look at success a little bit less about money now. It doesn't mean money isn't important to me, but success isn't just dependent on a bonus, for example.
Success sometimes feels more about the quality of my life, how I spend my time, appreciating little moments that bring me joy, feeling fulfilled, things like being around good people that I love, that love me back. And it's really true about that inner sense of accomplishment rather than what is on the outside. And I mean, it's a work in progress. I'm excited to see how this new definition really
Jenny Dempsey (19:20.75)
you know, evolves and how this all continues to play out. Right. And it does resonate with me what you're saying, because for example, later, I would say in the last couple of years, I've definitely made the switch from the value of money versus time. And I've definitely made that same shift. And I talk about it in the book. I I worked really hard my whole life.
And I did all the things in the American dream that you're sort of served up as a child. But I was ready to give all of that up. And so we made some really hard decisions. What do you want? What are you willing to do? What are you willing to sacrifice? And we made some hard decisions about our finances and where we lived.
we did basically everything we could to have more time and to create the stability for the money so that we would, you know, one of those things of course is downsizing from the big house, the big family house to the smaller place. But I just wanted to say that another big factor in the life phase is aging. And, you know, we don't, we don't really talk about that openly very much. It's something that we try to hide, like our health, we're trying to...
We our health at work all the time because we don't want people to know what's really going on and how it might jeopardize the next assignment or the next opportunity. I feel like these are real factors that we're constantly trying to sort of put aside and into a compartment so that it doesn't affect our career. And the truth is as we...
You know, like I say, found out during COVID and the world changed and our work lives are completely different now. There are a lot of choices and there aren't a lot of differences. the way forward is going to be to align the worker with the worker's values and their life phase. that's really the only...
Jenny Dempsey (21:30.42)
answer for these companies that are suffering from this labor shortage. And I just wanted to share that with you. I was looking yesterday on the US Chamber Commerce statistics about this labor shortage being real and that it's going to last for the next couple decades. So I want all your career flippers to know that they have the power. You have the power. You can design your life the way you want. You can design your work.
the way that you want this demand for workers and for labor is going to last for a long time. Yeah, that's an eye opening statistic. You know, when I first got laid off and jumped right back into the job search, I had about 350 to 400 rejections and it felt surreal. And I was just applying for like middle management, know, independent contributor roles. And I really at the bottom of the totem pole.
And so I think, you know, this really is a time for us to adapt in a way, find opportunities that really fit our skills and know that it might take a while to get it just because of the nature of where we're at in the job market. And, but if we don't take the action and we don't evolve, know, we'll just be stuck kind of this endless clicking cycle, apply, apply on LinkedIn jobs or any job board, you know, without any real change. Right. Right.
And yeah, there's this, like I say, there's all these factors that we're trying to hide at work. And one of them is health. And I speak about that in the book as well, that early in chapter two, I talk about my husband who had a really serious illness at the time and all the career flips that I had to endure. of course,
One of them was almost getting fired, right? Was the, when I was working for the devil and this particular boss loved to fire people. And I saw the writing on the wall and I felt, gosh, I'm next in line. And so I better, you know, make my flip now. But it was all within the framework, like I say, of health, right? Of family and his illness.
Jenny Dempsey (23:53.326)
And then the irony is that by chapter 10, I referenced that some of these later flips that I'm making now are related to serious illness for both my husband and myself. And so that is now a current factor. What you're admitting to people now when you speak honestly, I'm a great worker. I just produced this book. I've got several others in the hopper.
you know, everything's going well, but I do have this serious condition that needs attention and as well as taking care of my husband. And so that's pretty easy to work around. And I have to say, I really feel blessed and just so incredibly grateful on this journey. Now in the book writing world, because the publisher is just so incredibly helpful, understanding.
flexible, and we've done everything on time, on deadline. And I think it's just a testament to what you can get done when both sides are trying to achieve that goal, right? It's the employer and the employee are both in, on the same team. And it's just been, it's just, it's just been incredible journey and a wonderful, wonderful experience. And I, I'm, I'm ready, ready for the next one.
It reminds me of that quote, when you have your health, you have a thousand problems. When you don't, you have just one. And it, first of all, I just want to acknowledge that it sounds like you're going through a lot, Kate, and I just appreciate you for opening up about it. So thank you. know, balancing your own health struggles while caring for your husband is a huge challenge. And I mean, it would be completely understandable to feel overwhelmed at times and not
want to do any work at all. And you you found a publisher that truly supports you and allows you to keep pursuing your goals. And I really think, I mean, it's, proof right here. Like that kind of flexibility can make a big difference. You know, when people, or excuse me, when companies prioritize people over profit, you know, companies, publisher, self-employed, like whatever it is, like it's an environment where people can thrive.
Jenny Dempsey (26:20.008)
even when tough circumstances happen, we can still accomplish a lot. Health is just another factor in this case. as long as everyone is flexible and on the same team, then you're all working toward the same goal. But back to your earlier point, I think that it really does connect with your interest in changing from
you know, the importance of money to importance of time. And I remember in one of your earlier podcasts, you said that your dad, you know, late in his life said that he wished that he had not spent so much time at work. And that really resonates with me. And I'm sure it does with you and it's helping to guide you and direct you and, what you're doing now. And I guess I just want to, you know, sort of make a really clear point that
Money matters, mortgages matter. I've done all of that work and been a responsible citizen. And I've worked really hard to the point where I can make some changes and make some sacrifices so that we can be in this position now to take care of each other and still have the space and the time to work on these really important projects that
have a lot of meaning for us and a lot of impact. Yeah, I appreciate you bringing that up about my dad. Just dig into the wound. No, kidding. But really, it was an experience that was incredibly tough, sad, but it did open my eyes. And it's a thought that I can't erase. I continue to make choices with his voice echoing in my mind.
Yeah. And he was such a money focused person. know, he really drilled that into my head and that became such a part of who I was. know, money matters. Like, just like you said, like money matters. There are bills to pay. Like we can't ignore that. and so we really, I think we, it just helps us look into how we're making these decisions to, to live.
Jenny Dempsey (28:41.29)
and how we're still gonna be able to make sure the other things are taken care of while redefining what that success looks like, redefining what we actually need. You move from a huge house into something smaller. What matters? And I think that it helps us really evaluate that. So, Kate, for people listening now and selfishly for myself, people considering making a job change or...
a complete career flip or starting their own business, what's a piece of advice that you'd give to them right now? Wow. I would give them several pieces of advice. Number one, I would say that it really takes courage, commitment, and community together because we have a limited amount of willpower and you can lie there on the beach on your vacation, like you say, and you can dream about
your next career move or your next job, but you have a limited amount of willpower and a limited amount of time and limited amount of energy. And you really need to build that community around you that can support you and give you back that positive energy that you're constantly using to get to the next place. I would also say that
Our satisfaction is proportional to our self-knowledge, our compassion and our expectations. I talk about this a lot in the book that, you know, employers have expectations of you, you have expectations of them, but it's all in proportion to how well you know yourself, how compassionate you are to them, to your coworkers and to yourself, of course. I think that it's also really
important to forgive your bosses and your coworkers. This is something that I came to later in life that they have their own set of problems. They have their own issues. They have their own framework of their life phases they're dealing with, right? That they brought to the office that day. And the more compassion you can bring to your bosses and your coworkers, I think the better it will be.
Jenny Dempsey (31:04.588)
Yeah, I think that the bottom line is you do have to take a leap of faith. You do have to accept some level of risk in order to make the ultimate flip and know that it's just one of probably many, many, in your life. And that's okay. That is the way of the world now. And you really do need to take care of yourself first. Well said, Kate. I really feel like we could chat about this for a really long time.
Your wisdom, your personal experience really shine through and I'm just soaking it all in. So thank you so much for sharing all of this with us today. So how can people find you? I'd love for everyone to be able to read your book and connect with you if they have questions or just want to share their thoughts. Sure. Thank you. They can find me on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook. I'm in all the places.
I have a website also, is KateGoggin.net. Connect with me on any of those places. And then for the book, it's part of a series. And so the book publisher is the 10littlerules.com publisher. And it's really, like I say, just been a joy to put all this together to look back at...
you know, my career and these stories that have helped so many people along the way who had similar questions and similar problems and similar issues and to share that with them to provide this, you know, guided journaling experience so that they can try to write their own rules and to help them feel less alone. That's really the bottom line. And
I'm really looking forward to helping a lot of people.
Jenny Dempsey (33:20.844)
If you enjoyed this episode, share it with a friend who might need a little boost of inspiration. And make sure to subscribe for more flipping stories like Kate's every week. If you have a second, leaving a review might seem small, but it helps the show reach more career flippers around the world. I appreciate you taking the time to do that. And if you have a career flip story of your own and want to share it on a future episode, tell me about it. Send me an email to hello at thecareerflipper.com.
What I love most about doing this podcast is a chance that these stories might be the spark someone needs to break free from feeling stuck and finally take that first step toward their dreams. That first step is really tough, but it's so worth it. Whether it helps you grow or opens doors to something you've never imagined, it's a step that can change everything. So keep on your path, my friend. What's the best that could happen?