What can baking bread, wrangling cattle, and designing graphics teach you about customer experience? In this episode, Luke Jamieson from Melbourne, Australia shares how staying curious and open to new opportunities led him from the kitchen to the CX world, where he discovered the importance of creativity, hands-on experience, and aligning your work with your passions.
What can baking bread and pastries teach you about working in the customer experience tech space? In today’s episode, host Jenny Dempsey introduces you to Luke Jamieson from Melbourne, Australia. He started out as a baker and pastry chef, wrangled some cattle, tried his hand at graphic design, and eventually discovered his true passion in the customer experience (CX) world. Luke shares how curiosity has shaped his journey and reminds us that careers don’t need to follow a straight line—you can find creativity in any job. He also talks about how hands-on experience often trumps academic degrees and why it’s so important to align your work with what truly matters to you.
Episode Takeaways
Connect with Luke
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/luke-jamieson/
His main website: https://www.lukejamieson.live/
Jenny Dempsey (00:00.088)
There's two types of people, right? There's you don't know where you're going, but you might end up somewhere interesting, or you don't know where you're going. You're never going to get there. And that the two different mindsets, right? And so for me, it's always been, it's always been that, Hey, I might not always know where I'm going, but it's always going to be interesting. And, and I, what I try to do is when opportunities present themselves to me, I take them and I do them with gusto.
Welcome to the Career Flipper, a weekly podcast all about career change stories from people in all kinds of industries. We talk about how they go from point A to point B and all the twists and turns and surprises along the way. If you've been thinking about switching careers, consider this your permission slip. I'm your host, Jenny Dempsey, a career flipper myself. After 18 years in customer service and tech startups, I got laid off and turned to furniture flipping.
rescuing pieces that were headed for the trash and giving them a new life. You can check out my makeovers over on Instagram and TikTok under San Diego Furniture Flipper. I started this podcast because honestly, I felt pretty alone in my career flip. But then I started to talk to others who'd made the leap too. And guess what? It turns out tons of people out there are flipping their careers at any age and hearing their stories really has been
so inspiring to me. It made me realize that it's never too late to switch lanes and every conversation teaches me something new. And I figured that if these stories are helping me feel more confident and less alone, they might be able to help someone else too. And that's why I started The Career Flipper, to share these amazing journeys and offer support to anyone thinking about in the middle of or just past a career flip. In this episode, you'll meet Luke Jamieson from Melbourne, Australia.
He started out as a baker and pastry chef, dabbled in graphic design, and eventually found his true passion in the customer experience world. In this episode, Luke talks about how staying curious and open to new opportunities has shaped his career. He's a big believer that careers don't have to follow a straight line. You can find creativity in any job.
Jenny Dempsey (02:17.762)
He also highlights how hands -on experience often outweighs academic degrees and stresses the importance of aligning your work with what really matters to you. There's also a cattle rancher in there. Just wait, it's a great story. Let's hop to the episode now. Hey Luke, thanks so much for coming on the Career Flipper. How's it going? Yeah, good Jenny, good. Thanks for having me. This is great. This is awesome. This is awesome. You are coming all the way from...
Tell us where you're at. Australia, from Melbourne, Australia. So right down the bottom of the country. So it's freezing here at the moment. gosh. Yeah. You're in winter. Well, I'd send you some San Diego sunshine because we have a heat wave right now. So please, I miss it. Give me the heat. Gladly. Gladly. share. Gladly. We'll share. You know, we've known each other for years in the customer experience community. That's where
We've met, have such a global community as you've mentioned, and it's just one of these places where you get to know some really cool people. And I'm so happy to have you on today because when we were messaging, you shared some very unique and interesting career flips that you've had throughout your career, which I had no idea about. And I am, yeah, I'm excited to hear these experiences that you've had.
Let's dive in because I didn't I wasn't always in in CX. I came from a family of essentially blue collar workers, like right back from the first fleet when they first landed in Australia. university wasn't a thing for my family. so for me, was my life was to go and get a trade. So I was a baker and pastry chef by trade. So I left school at 16 and went and
started baking sourdough bread. So, which is now all the rage, right? So the rage now wasn't back then. It was very, it was very niche back then. So, and also gluten free bread back then. But it was awful. It was, it was bloody awful. It was, it was basically like rice just whisked rice flour whisked together to these little bricks. And we got to charge exorbitant fees for it because nobody else was doing it.
Jenny Dempsey (04:36.206)
I did that for, so I did my apprenticeship, finished out my apprenticeship that for four years. I then had my own business. So the very young age of 20, I like to say that I was a really good baker and a really rubbish accountant. that's so you don't have to put an E next to the episode. Yeah, look, I was working pretty hard, it's a whole different world when you've got to juggle the books and
you know, juggle the flower bags. So it was, was tough. and, and you know what? So was holding down any sort of relationship and friends because I was working midnight through till, you know, 10 AM, six days a week with Tuesdays off and you know, your mates become pretty scarce and you know, you're not all that, that around for having a girlfriend. So it was, it was time. I was like, I can't keep doing this. It's
I need to choose life over career, over work. So I didn't know what I was going to do. I took a couple of months off to go and do drove cattle for a while. So I drove cattle from New South Wales, which is of midway through on the East Coast, all the way up to the Northern Territory. Did a trip up there and a trip back. So it three months up, three months back. That was wild.
Just me and a mate just decided we're going to go do this. It was great because we could make a lot of money and you had nowhere to spend it. So that was good. I think got back from there. I spent a little bit of time. I spent about a year, just sort of a year in Indonesia volunteering to build a school. That was really interesting as well. Again, for someone who wanted to be around people.
I chose driving cattle to go out in middle of nowhere. There was nobody. and I chose, to go into the middle of Borneo, where you could only get a boat and there was no radio. There was no TV. Only thing we had was a cassette player. If you're, anyone, and if you're too young to know what a cassette player is, look it up. but we had one tape and all of the music was in Bahasa.
Jenny Dempsey (06:59.534)
except for one song which was Billie Joel's Uptown Girl. Stop. That's funny. I reckon I listened to Uptown Girl, I don't know, 10 times a day for a year. I was so sick of it, but now when I hear it, have good memories now. So that was wild. And so then I came back and I had to figure out what am I going to do? What am I good at? I was still so young, so you don't really know.
And as I said, hadn't really finished out school properly. I finished year 10, which was like the minimum you needed. So that made it really tough for me to think about what I wanted to do. And so I ended up getting a job through a friend doing graphic design and ad space and all that sort of stuff. And so I really enjoyed that. I found that I've got a real creative flair.
That's that's the you know, I I love being creative and It's it's really natural for me. And so that was a great it was a great fit to get in there and do graphic design and design stuff for people and I really really enjoyed enjoyed that through that journey. I Moved states. I moved from New South Wales down to Victoria And for the most the only reason that most guys move and that's for a girl. So I moved moved states Quit the job
I was like, I'll get another one in Melbourne. And just couldn't because again, just, all I had was experience, but no qualifications. And at the time, everyone wanted to be a graphic designer. it was a highly saturated market in probably what is the most creative city in Australia. So I took a call center job. Again, just somebody said, look, know these guys are hiring, apply.
And I went and applied for this job and I was so nervous because I, one, working for a financial institution, had no experience. thought, there's no way they're going to choose me. And I was inducted into the contact center world and I was just so excited that I got this job. So excited. And I'd worked so hard, like I really applied myself in the training.
Jenny Dempsey (09:22.144)
Everyone else was like, had financial services backgrounds and were really, you know, quite switched on and I didn't have anything going for me other than work hard and be passionate and creative got through. I realized at that point, once I got in there and started doing the contacts and work and dealing with customers, that I just, loved it. Just loved it. It was, I felt like I'd found my thing because I can apply all of my creativity, my
love for people, my desire to create great experiences, but I realized at this time, and so this is back in 2007, maybe. And so the world, like we'd just gone through the GFC, the global financial crisis. Everyone was just calling and just, there was all these legacy products that had been sold that were...
were no good and people were finding out that they've got no retirement, no retirement funds. And so just horrible time to having to deal with that sort of stuff. And what I realized during that time is that the contact center industry just needed to shift and change because it was all about efficiencies, driving as much out of people as you possibly could, dehumanizing the situation. Like we were never allowed to say sorry.
to a customer because that meant admitting liability. And the leadership was all about just, you ticking these boxes? It was just this box ticking exercise. that was when I realized that this is my opportunity to get in here and get how we think about stuff. And so I put aside all my other career goals and said, I'm just going to change this context in the industry. And I worked for 15 years to really try to do that. And I felt like I did. I felt like I
I felt like I did. had some pretty big wins during that time, including creating a contact center that ended up winning the ICMI best global contact center, best contact center in the world. And that's where I met so many of the CX legends that we see today, right? It's where I met Jeff Toyster for the very first time, Brad Cleveland. was...
Jenny Dempsey (11:39.086)
And Brad, this is at the time, he actually signed my book of contact center managers on Fast Forward. He signed that for me and I was thrilled. I was just starstruck by him. So I spent 15 years doing that space. There's so many CX celebs. just a big fan of. Wow. So it sounds like when I'm hearing you share this, a lot of the things that happened earlier on were
you know, kind of just like opportunities that popped up. Like for example, the cattle, like you knew something needed to change. You felt that, but you weren't sure. So you kind of just, it sounds like there was that exploratory time where you were just like taking things as they found you. Whether or not it sounds like they were kind of aligned with what you really wanted to do, but you didn't know that just yet. So I'm kind of thinking back on what you said about your family. What did your family think about your decisions?
during that time when you were kind of just like trying to figure it out? that's interesting. I left home pretty early in my early teens. So I didn't really care what my parents thought. But look, it's funny. It's funny you say that though, because my parents, they were really proud of me being a baker and pastry chef. And I was
I was pretty good at it. I got like apprentice of the year and I won like the business pie competition in Australia, like best Aussie pie. And I won that. so was this, these were like really big things. And when I decided to walk away from it all, I know that my mom in particular was just like, why are you giving up?
And look, now when I talk with now, look, now I work in, you know, in a corporate space. I've worked in, you know, I spent the last four years in tech and startups and now I've moved back to corporate. And when I try and explain what I do to my dad, he still has no idea. My brother runs a paint shop and he's so proud of my brother because he can get it. gets it. He understands what he does. He doesn't really understand what I do. But look, to your point, Jenny, is I've always thought that
Jenny Dempsey (13:55.554)
there's, and whenever, whenever I've like been leading people and had people reporting to me, I don't see careers as being linear. You know, I see them, I see them more as like it, if you could imagine a cone shape and within that cone that you could be to the left, the right, the middle of that cone and, and your path might vary right across from left to right through that cone as you move forward. You know, it doesn't have to be this dead straight line.
And I also think that there's two types of people, right? There's you don't know where you're going, but you might end up somewhere interesting, or you don't know where you're going. You're never going to get there. And that the two different mindsets, right? And so for me, it's always been, it's always been that, I might not always know where I'm going, but it's always going to be interesting. And, and I, what I try to do is when opportunities present themselves to me, I take them and I do them with gusto.
It doesn't, it might not be. So I don't, I don't have this like this lofty idea that I am going to be the CEO of some company and I'm going to work really hard. Like I just don't have that, style to me of, of like that's that, that, that level of laser focused determination. It's a passion that I do everything I can with the, with everything that I have. So, and I think that's bowed pretty well for me. And it's provided me with what I think is really pretty interesting career, fun career.
it's given me, I call myself a polymath, this, know, or, or a jack of all trades, right. but I, I have done every one of them with, with as much passion as I can. And then that's given me this amazing, like broad skillset as a generalist to go in and, approach things. and, that's, that's a pretty valued skill these days. I'm not sure it always was, but it definitely is these days. yeah.
it's such a valuable skill to have because you can hop into anything and just, it sounds like you have fun, you learn things, you have these amazing experiences no matter what it is. like going back to kind of that straight line and if that's someone's career, that's totally fine too. But sometimes you don't get to like juice the lemon, so to say. Like you're really not getting the full experience. And I agree with you.
Jenny Dempsey (16:20.142)
It's the same way, like whether I am on the front lines in a role helping customers, there's some impact that it's gonna be made. There's, I'm having fun, I'm gonna get to be creative, I'm gonna, like there's ways to do it and make it so it's really yours and authentically yours. And that it's more than, at least for, you know, and kind of hearing you say this, like needs to be more than just a job. It's not about a lofty title or anything. It's like.
Let's align with our values and do the work that's going to like do a great job, help people, but also like light us up. Exactly. And I think COVID has taught us that, right? That we've become more purpose driven. think that's one of the silver linings of that whole time. And something else you mentioned just around, creativity, you know, I think a lot of people when they, a lot of people, because I am quite creative and I think if you see any of my content, you know, you kind of see that shine through. But.
People are always like, how do you find this creativity? And I always reply with the same thing. It's not about how creative you are, it's how you're creative. And that is because I think that no matter what job you're doing, you can find creativity in it. Like I've seen people who are so good at using Excel and can come up with the most creative ways of solving problems with that, that I could never do. And that's their form of creativity. it's, think we, but we don't think about numbers so much as creative.
Unless it's maybe creative accounting. look, think that, I think that, you know, it's really important. That's really important to people to realize that you can, you can be creative in anything you do. It doesn't matter what that looks like. Right. Very true. Even in corporate roles, there are opportunities to be creative and use those skills. And so like when you got into, I'm going to jump back for a second. When you got into like, you know, the digital world and you were kind of learning to be creative with that.
How did you learn those skills? how did you know how to do that? Jenny, the first time I ever turned on a computer, I would have been 21. I was, I mean, there was computer studies at school when we had it, but then as a bakie, you never use a computer. And so they sat me down in front of this computer and I was just lost. And thank God for the people around me, like good friends who are still my friends today who helped me. I could tell you a really funny story about not.
Jenny Dempsey (18:45.024)
understanding about computers if you want. It's a little bit naughty, but I'll leave it to people's imagination. So one of the companies I was working for, the first customer I got was a subsidiary of a large company called Blackwoods, but the subsidiary was called Beaver Chains and Rigging. And they did, you know, like for cranes and things like that. And back then there was no Google.
It was, I'm really showing my age in this podcast. It was asked, Jeeves, so I asked Jeeves to do research on this company. I Googled, well, I searched Beaver Chains and Rigging and the things that came up were nothing to do with that company. And back then there was no such thing as pop -up blockers. And so there was a lot of pop -ups that sounded like baby seals.
I'll leave that to the imagination. But there was a lot of noises that shouldn't be heard in a corporate environment. Talk about a learning experience right there. every time I closed the pop -up, 10 more opened. I was bright red. I was 21, bright red, and I just didn't know what I was doing. It was hilarious. How did I learn?
Look, I just threw myself into those situations and look, am quite curious, really curious. And I think that that's the key, right? The key is to be curious and to try everything. Just give it a go. So yeah, I was always like that as a kid though. I would get toys and my parents would drive them nuts because I would pull them apart. First thing I'd is pull them apart because I wanted to know how they worked.
That's interesting. lot of, know, some of the other people that I've talked to kind of offline about the podcast that have showed interest have said things to me like, gosh, I would love to do something different, but I just, I don't have the degree. I don't have the skill. don't have, like, I've never done that. These types of things that come up with people and hearing you say, you know, the curiosity and just trying it, even when you don't know, you know.
Jenny Dempsey (20:59.392)
the search engine is a great example. You didn't know. But there are other things that you've tried and you didn't know and how that doesn't have to stop you from moving forward. And I think it's something that a lot of people struggle with. And they maybe don't feel like they're ready to try and they're not willing to try until they're ready. And then they may never do it. Exactly. I also think that this idea of
like the academic view of everything is it's so ingrained in us, you know, it's ingrained in society. You've got to go to university and if you don't, you're going to end up a deadbeat. And it's just not true. And I actually went and did university once I started working. Like once I was in the corporate world, I was really blessed that they paid for my university. And I went and did masters in business. And then I also got to travel to the States, which is where I again, I met a lot of people, but to spend time at Stanford University.
at the D school there and learn about design thinking. And, that was incredible. Not once has any of those, those, pieces of paper got me a job. It's not those things that have gotten me the job. It was, it's my experience, my creativity, my, my drive, my passion and, and what I believe I can do for an organization. No one's ever asked me for my academic record. So, you know, I'm not saying you shouldn't do it. I'm not saying you shouldn't do it. I learned a lot and I thought it was good, but I think that we,
handcuff ourselves to this idea that if you don't have the piece of paper, you're not going to get the job. Yeah, true. It's so true. It's so true. And especially like, you know, for others and when they have a full -time career, for example, and then there's other things on the side that they want to do, even with those types of things, they may not even start it. you know, I've followed you for years in the customer experience community. And, you know, you have a full -time job and you are doing so much outside of that.
to really showcase the customer experience leaders and the work that people are doing, but also your own creativity and your skills. I mean, anyone listening should go to LinkedIn and follow you simply just to see the work that you put out, like the recent 20 questions, for example. That is a big undertaking. And putting this out there to feature 20.
Jenny Dempsey (23:18.99)
leaders in the customer experience world and answer 20 different questions on, you know, 20 different posts that you are sharing. And, I know you have a partner in crime for that, but still the collaboration takes time and being able to do that on top of a full -time job. Can you kind of talk a bit about that? Cause again, people, they won't do things because they think I got to focus on work. I got to focus on the day to day, the paycheck, but
Career flipping can also include just doing things on the side that really bring you joy and use your skills, right? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think when you're passionate about it, you find time. That's one thing. And so in the current role I'm in, I don't have a lot of time. I have a lot of time for some of that create more traditional thought around what is being created.
And so when Michael, Matt and I got together and said, hey, we want to collaborate on more stuff because we've done a few things prior. I said, it's got to be easy. We have to make it in such a way that we can create content that's going to serve a great purpose and, but also be easy enough for us to put out. And so, you know, that's where we came up with this idea that we're going to interview 20 SteeX leaders like yourself and
That gives us 20 weeks worth of content. So we were able to do that and schedule that out for 20 weeks So it is a bit of a set and forget but look the reality is I spend and have spent many many many hours editing that that Content, but I just do that at night when I'm chilling, know instead of maybe watching a Netflix program I'll spend my time doing that because that's what I'm passionate about And I get joy out of that. Right? So it's not like it's
It doesn't feel like a task. doesn't feel like a grind. It's just, it's a joy. And look, I learned a lot from that whole process too. So, you know, and there's always, there's always a lesson in everything. Like I remember back, even way back baking in the very early days, we were at and we had to do this community event as like part of our apprenticeship. And we had a fairy bread competition and
Jenny Dempsey (25:38.42)
I was all about, need to make it just perfect. Like the edges need to be perfect. The bottom needs to be perfect. Sprinkles exactly right across perfect coverage. That was my idea. We will win by through perfection. And the other group, they cut out farm animals and decorated that out of the bread. And they won like by landslide because
And they didn't have, it was moms versus apprentices, by the way. And the moms won by a landslide because they understood the customer. They understood who their audience was. They were able to create these fair beds. And it wasn't about perfection. wasn't about showing your skills or anything like that. It was literally about know your customer and apply that. And so I've taken that lesson from when I was like 17 and tried to apply that through everything.
It doesn't matter where you learn the lessons and you can, there's so much crossover, you know? So. Yeah. So much crossover and how one lesson you learned in you were 17 is still part of things that you're learning today and decisions that you make today and how it's just all kind of like bread crumbs. Sometimes I think of it like that talking about bread, but pun intended gluten free bread crumbs. Maybe, know, but
But it is all connected in one way or another and yeah, lesson in everything. And Luke, I want people to stay in touch with you, connect with you, learn more about you. How can they find you? Look, Lincoln's probably a really great spot. So just Luke Jamison, it's with IE, just like the whiskey. Or you can check out my website, which is lukejamison .live. yeah, it's really about.
My goal for LinkedIn is about sharing my knowledge, sharing other people's knowledge, building community and helping wherever I can. So if you've got, if you're in a rut with your career and you're like, what do I do? Shout out, happy to help, happy to have a conversation and jump on a call or whatever. Doesn't matter where you are. I love that.
Jenny Dempsey (27:55.106)
The Career Flipper community is so supportive. Thank you for offering that up and thank you for sharing your story and your wisdom and your learnings and keeping us laughing. I appreciate you so much, Luke. Yeah, I'll back out you, Jenny. Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Career Flipper. Be sure to connect with Luke using the links in the show notes. If this episode gave you a little boost, share it with a friend who can also use some inspiration. Reading and reviewing the show helps.
so much and hitting that subscribe button means you'll get more amazing flippin stories like Luke's every week. Your support helps me reach even more career flippers and those dreaming of making their own leap, challenging the stigma, spreading all the good vibes and motivation that we need on this journey. If you're thinking about switching to a career in customer service or just want to improve how you support your customers in any role, I've got two online courses that might help you.
They're both under an hour and super affordable, under 50 bucks each. You can check them both out at thecareerflipper .com slash courses. If you have any questions, just let me know. You know, what I love most about doing this podcast is the hope that it might inspire you to go after what you're dreaming of, to give you that permission slip, even if it feels really scary. I know it's hard to take that first step. Personally, I know this. And when the fear of the unknown is really holding you back, it's hard.
But if I can ask one thing of you, it would be to get your shoes on, take a deep breath, and just take that first step. You never know where it might lead. And I believe, I know that you can achieve whatever you set your mind to. Keep on your path, my friend. What's the best that could happen?